Episode 16 of my #podcast with Deepthi Daita, Solution Architect at #Salesforce is now out.
It was such a wide ranging conversation, and we touch on so many topics like how to handle being a minority in a male dominated field, and what we need to do to carve out a path for ourselves.
Of course, as usual – we touch on my favourite topics around successful project delivery and working with high performing teams.
I really enjoyed going deep into so many of the topics, and I still think that doing the podcast is one of my favourite things to do!
Come listen to our fun conversation! Link 👇🏻
#OnThePeiroll
Transcript
Pei Mun Lim
Hello, Deepthi How are you today? So we’re gonna start again. Hello, Deepthi. Welcome to my podcast OnThePeiroll. How are you today?
Deepthi
doing very, very good. Thank you for asking. It’s been a it’s been a good week so far. workwise football wise, sports wise whatnot. But yeah, I’m looking forward to the weekend as well. I think Sunday will be packed heavy. But yeah, really good. How about you?
Pei Mun Lim
In the yes, no, I’m also in a pretty good mood. We’ve been trying to arrange this conversation for some time. So I’m really looking forward to chatting with you today. And I like your, your journey, mainly because it mirrors mine quite a bit in terms of a lot of my, my experiences come from working with partners, and I know that something that you’ve done as well. Can you just talk about? And tell us the story of your journey to where you are today?
Deepthi
Yeah, sure. So I started off my career, at least in the UK with knots with a partner company, but then end user organization. Well, in the context of the technology, I guess, but yeah, so even so that was all, let’s say on Microsoft products and whatnot. Eventually, I then switch technologies and moved into Salesforce and working with numerous partners who have not numerous, two or three partners in Salesforce. In working with different partners like this, it’s it’s really interesting, because I’ve also worked with varied size organizations, varied size partners, along my journey. In personally, in all of this space, I’ve also not just stuck to one role, but I’ve changed different roles as well. And so yeah, so I initially was, was a technical consultant, and then I moved into functional and then I went back into architecture. So it’s all it’s all like, yeah, different roles. So it’s been, it’s been really good. And the good thing about working with so many organizations of different sizes and dynamic is the fact that you can see how some of the decisions may take may be made quickly, depending on what the process in the sizes of decisions take time. And the amount of lead time you have as an individual to go on to the projects, the amount of scope you have, again, as an individual, which I had to grow within one company. So yes, lots of varied experiences. And I think it really helped me along my way to come to where I am today. Because definitely, I think without all of that experience, it would have been Yeah, I’m sure it gave me exposure to a lot of various situations, which really helped me. But yeah, I think the key thing probably is it’s it’s different sizes, and how have you see things progressing faster or slower, depending on the size of the organization, which is, which was really fascinating, interesting to see.
Pei Mun Lim
So let me just pick on that point, then, because like I said, I have also worked in different size partners, and what have been your observations in terms of you got your small partner, you got your boutique, and then you got your large gsis. So I know obviously right now you’re working with for Salesforce. So that’s, that’s a lot more different than working for a partner, in terms of in terms of the sizes, in terms of how quickly they do things do you have a preference on if you were to make a choice, what has been your most favorite experience in working with partner.
Deepthi
Um, so if I start with, let’s say, boutique or medium sized partner companies, the really good thing is that you get to know your team quite quickly, internally. And I feel like what we were discussing just a while ago, what I feel is if you have that relationship with your team, where it’s bit more transparent and genuine, and if you have that bond built ahead of you beginning on starting on a project, I found that it really helps. And because there is a plan and there is a program and there is a project plan deadlines for small milestones, everything that you can bring to a client to make the project successful. But what happens behind the scene I think is much more being a factor in terms of how it all comes together and how the team interacts with each other. So I find that that’s, that’s great positive of working in companies where you can very quickly get to know each other. If it’s just like across the across the desk like saying, Hey, how’s it going to have a blast so you can have that conversation quite quickly. The downside, however, is sometimes the process may fail for it’s like how much governance you have What kind of backup do you have? Did we give it enough time? Or did we get into the into the What do you say? The wall of bidding and committing to deadlines that we may not tell you a degree? Did we have enough cushion there? So I think that sometimes we’re not be 100%. Perfect, perfect or most of the times perfect. But that’s that’s what I I find in terms of projects for that size of companies. bigger companies GSR is, the good thing is you have large projects, like projects may even run a couple of years. So if you are motivated to work for that long for a single client, I think I think then it works for me it does, because I always like to see how, what I’ve started in some being like, so for Yeah, if I’m working on like big transformation project, I would want to see the end of it, not probably just deliver a piece of it, and then walk away. That’s just me, that’s my personality. So So yeah, so that’s, that’s one thing that I like, which is the size and complexities, etc. Sometimes the process can slow you down a little bit, if you have to get any approvals if you have to. Yeah, just make getting the decisions made. And that kind of that kind of little bit detail. But yeah, and then it’s on a very generic and higher level. I think none of us can ever escape from bureaucracy anyway, isn’t it? There’s always that bureaucracy that you’d either have to be a part of, or you somehow somehow have to navigate it. But yeah, so there’s there’s all pros and cons. And I, personally, for me, my work satisfaction comes from delivering quality work, which sounds like oh, yeah, everyone wants that. But yeah, but but for me, yeah, that’s, that’s important, then what? And I, I’m getting better. And I can keep all this politics aside and focus on what kind of work that I’m doing. And, and so yeah, so so I’ve stuck to working on on some of these big projects recently, which, which I really enjoy.
Pei Mun Lim
I think, what do you say is I would agree quite heartily, there’s a trade off between governance processes were working, and speed of just doing stuff. So as you mentioned, for small to medium sized company, governance generally isn’t a very big thing worse for the larger ones. GSI is the global system integrators, it’s obviously default place, because their projects have so much more complex, so much bigger, that the potential for issues and if things go wrong, potentially litigation, you know, they’ve got to limit their exposures. And therefore, yes, that’s the reason for governance for the review. Both of us work in the same company at cap, we had bid views, there’s so many layers and totally understand why that is the case. Yeah. You also touched on something that I really like, which is working in a boutique company, you get to know your team. Yeah. And one of the things that I really enjoyed was, as you say, you get to know them so well. And the thing that wheels the engine of the project team is that you know each other so well, that you can anticipate each other. Yeah, things happen. And plus, that anticipation gives us that speed that you would otherwise have to clarify information as miscommunication. That’s so I think that’s I would agree with that. That’s something I kind of miss in Yeah.
Deepthi
But yeah, yeah, exactly that because usually, I think it’s a very common problem in India, not problem where we’re the same age. Yeah, probably in the in the IT wall or in day to day lives is probably is like, jokingly quotes and go around in terms of Oh, that could have just been an email rather than an hour meeting. So that kind of things, right. So if you, if you’re just sitting side by side, why don’t you just talk, we don’t need to enroll. We don’t need to call 100 people in CC, it’s not about getting the limelight or whatever, all the time. It’s about working towards project goals and making it work and some some things need to need probably, what do you say exposure to other people in the team just for the benefit of the project, but how much of it is is really needed or not is it’s a fine balance, isn’t it? And I think in smaller companies he can he can like just talk very easily. I’m sure it’s it’s not that in bigger companies. You don’t but yeah, I just I just have this whole thing going in my head about email versus, versus a phone conversation or just talk to each other. But yeah,
Pei Mun Lim
I totally agree. Especially now when it’s all virtual. Yeah, you can’t just go Hey, how’s your weekend? Or you know, you actually have to schedule a zoom call, although I think in Salesforce, it’s no more going back like what it was right there keeping the flexibility.
Deepthi
Yeah. All right. Yeah. That’s slowly opening it up. Yeah, that’s true. Okay.
Pei Mun Lim
I think I kind of miss to sitting next to someone and just absorbing.
Deepthi
Yeah, I know what you’re saying. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Likewise, to be honest, yeah, it’s been a while I can remember. Remember when it was the last time since then sat next to a stranger wherever or someone that’s not in my house. But yeah.
Pei Mun Lim
So it’s, it’s Salesforce, where you’re working with that, when was the last time you’ve gone into the office.
Deepthi
So I try and sell software recently, and since I joined, it’s been COVID. So it’s always been working from home, I’m quite looking forward to going back into the towers. Because when I was not working for Salesforce, I did go to that house quite often. I like the building and all the fanciness that comes to the building. And so yeah, I’m actually excited to go probably might go, maybe mid August, end of August. Okay, something to look forward to. Yeah, definitely.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, so I think for both of us, our lives revolve around projects. Yep. So this can be a few questions about your projects. Yeah. So in your opinion, given the number of projects that you’ve been on, what has been your most enjoyable project? Or if there’s a few, can you draw out some, some of the elements that made that project really fun and enjoyable?
Deepthi
Yeah, so I was part of a project which went on for about 12 months, less than 12 months. enrichers, which is a fantastic one, which is what comes to mind at least now. And, and the reason why that projects is close to me, is firstly, the client and the customer who I was working with were completely signed up and on boarded. So they will listen to what we are saying. When I say listen, genuinely the meaning of literal meaning of the word Listen, because obviously, you may understand what I mean, by when client when a customer is listening to you versus Yeah, they’re hearing you, but that the things is not the things not working, what how they should. So yeah, the the customer was fully signed up. So that is something that I enjoyed. And what I mean by that is, we always used to have a collaborative conversation about how we make things happen. Obviously, all of this comes from first, fundamentally, you’re establishing that trust. But once that trust has been established, then, but the few know that you’re working towards that common goal, rather than just finishing off and signing off on the deliverables that you send your deliverable in, or S or w that’s not that that is, of course, the target, but it’s meeting them in the right way. So that’s one aspect that I really enjoy. Because I used to have genuine proper conversations with my customer then in the project is still up for success and whatever I worked on. I’m personally very proud of this, and whatever worked on you and I really go into production. And that’s for a very large number of markets. It’s not a single, what do you say high priority issue or anything that we’ve seen, and that I take it as a crate for the team, because that just shows that we’ve collaborated quite well had. So that’s something that I really enjoy the other aspect on the same project. The reason why I like it, again, is internal collaboration. So there were multiple architects on the project. And it wasn’t like, Oh, I’m the architect. I’m looking at this piece. And you’re the actor, you’re looking at that piece we always used to brainstorm, think about how we connect the dots together. Always exchange ideas. It wasn’t like, going to give you the idea of flying. So what happens to the fact that the idea came from me, there was no insecurity, not much. So we collaborated quite well. And we really worked as a team. And all of this sounds very, what do you say? It’s not very common these days, isn’t it? But yeah, so So that worked really well. So because of these two reasons, that product is really, really, it’s close to me. And I thought it worked. It worked quite well. And
Pei Mun Lim
yeah. So if I were to just summarize, what you just said, is that it boils down to communication and relationships.
Deepthi
Yeah, the trust Yeah, both BIT bit with your external people, with your customers and internally as well. Once you’ve established the trust, and people know that you have your own way of delivering it, but you will deliver and you are working towards the common goal and it’s not like a personal agenda that you’re working on that project. Yeah. So he like which I think is it makes sense as well. It’s not that you obviously want to be emotional about your project deliverables, but, but there’s also no point in being fake Because that in the any task, we have to make it work and make it happen. So. So yeah, so definitely Yeah, once you got that, trust in, have the channel to talk a parent open conversation really discuss about pros and cons because you can come up, come up, all of us can come up with multiple options, but it’s about properly understanding what a option this works. And this one will be actually well received properly analyzing and having that open conversation is and it’s going to the fire, knowing what the impact is, rather than say, Oh, it’s going to be all green. And we’re just going to, it’s all going to be Christmas everywhere for us. We’re never going to work, isn’t it? So? Yeah.
Pei Mun Lim
So there’s also an element of integrity and honesty. So relationships? Are relationships, communication and honesty. Yeah, that made it all work.
Deepthi
Yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah, I think so 200%. Because technical skills, it’s important to have the right technical skills and your core concepts as well, so that you make your staffing and resourcing all correctly. But a lot of us are fully putting able that we can gain technical skills quite quickly, I can sit over the weekend and probably understand a concept by Monday. Not that I’ll be an expert at it, but at least I’ll be able to answer or deal with it. So clear technical skills, you can gain it over time, and will probably take much long. Of course, the experience will make you perfect. But however, all the rest of the skills, I think that can only come from your attitude and your personalities.
Pei Mun Lim
fully agree. So on then now, if I flip it around and say, Can you think of some of your more what I call the character building projects, although that didn’t go quite so well? And can you think of any, can you draw some themes out of it? And what made it not that great?
Deepthi
I can, I can talk about what’s coming to my mind right now, obviously. But you know, if you’re talking about it a week later, I have a different example. But right now, I think it was in my initial phase of the career, when I made my switch between the path of between the technologies actually doesn’t matter even in my previous technology, whatever I was working on, but during the initial phases of your career where you don’t have a very senior position or a very, you were you know that you’re obviously not that experienced is when are even back then I used to think that even though the ideas or the solutions I had may not be perfect, I never thought that I was not making sense. However, what I realized is at times your position matters a little bit like for people to listen to you, in the title that you have in your signature sometimes has an impact. And I’m not sure if I’ve ever bought into that concept. Because whoever I’m working with in my team, if they’re making a point doesn’t matter what kind of experience you have definitely listening will always have a conversation. It doesn’t matter if you’re filing levels in the bow in their so called hierarchy or anywhere in the hierarchy. I’m not sure how it matters, to be honest. But that’s something that I’ve faced in my career. Where because just because of where I was in the ladder chain, or sometimes you’re probably not heard enough for all Yeah, you’re not given that importance is just in just like the amount of fight that you have to put in, then. Steps not stuck. Yeah. Yeah.
Pei Mun Lim
I think I think unconscious bias is very, very common. And we all we all do it because it’s just the way the brain works, isn’t it the need to very quickly pigeonhole us so that I know how to interact with you so that I’ve got patterns that I can refer to. Yeah, from my observation, I think the mark of maturity is to just having a poll to say, look, someone just wrote me an email. And you know, and under the email, it says, a graduate or intern versus a technical architect. And a lot of people in their minds will pay more attention to the one that’s coming from the technical architect, and it takes someone who’s got some emotional intelligence and the maturity to say, hang on, this person may have something valuable, as well as taking a pause, to actually give that person space and time to respond and provide value for the team. So I totally get what you’re trying to say it is. It is frustrating. Yeah, I think especially for us, women in the world of tech. So we’re already as I’ve spoken to quite a few women in the podcast and we have similar observation in that first of all, we women, which to be fair in the UK is not quite as bad as where I come from Malaysia. The disparity between how we are seen is much less still here. Yeah, why not? Point is not quite as big. So there’s that more in number to both you and I are in the minority as well. So there’s like a couple of steps, you’ve got to just to be the same level. So I totally get you. And I think that’s something that still has to have some way to go. Yeah. It’s moving in the right direction.
Deepthi
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. And you’re, you’ve raised such a great, great point. And I think I can talk about it for live rest of the day, or even for the whole weekend, because that topic is really, really close to my heart. And my personal experiences as well. So it’s just generally in terms of how it is being a woman in technology, and you choose an area where it’s from predominantly a lot of males, and it’s not about it’s not about comparison, or it’s not about it’s not it’s not like a fight or in negativity associated to it. But it’s generally what you would might have to most likely navigate through and some of these things which you may have want to ignore, or have to ignore, just just because you’re looking at the brighter side of things. So let’s say it’s a very great, great point and a very big topic. And yeah, it definitely plays a role, isn’t it? Yeah. And I was new to the country. And it’s, it’s, it’s always the, you know, the kind of words is your choice first, whatever it is, sometimes it’s like, you can create different impressions with different groups of audiences you talk to so it’s all about India and how you deal with it. And whether you you know, in your head that if it is that important to even pay attention or not, or you just no one, but the thing is you at least he, whatever it is, even if you want to move on, it’s still a conscious decision, right? So that there is some voluntary or involuntary is and all will have an impact. So on might, but yeah, so it’s a good one.
Pei Mun Lim
Yeah. How do you deal with it? When you come across something like this?
Deepthi
I’m assigned a very, I’ll try to keep it short. So in the very, very beginning, I used to think about it a little bit more. And I used to get impacted a little bit more as well, as I used to think Do I need to change my ways of working or my behavior and personality and all of this? It’s not like a self doubts about but I used to think whether Do I need to fit into any culture or any, any thoughts. But, but, but I always, I thought what really helped me is I always believed in, in, in how I deal with my work and approach to my work. So I think that’s probably helped me in sort of just navigating my way and focusing on my work, rather than how different people are reacting to how I what I say, and, or rather, not even reacting to what I say. So eventually, we’re coming in now I take some stance as well, which previously I wouldn’t have not that I want to go into much of detail, or I’m not sure if it’s relevant for this podcast, but yeah, so. So I think I had my journey. And I’ve learned a few things over time as well. But yeah, now now, I think I’m in a much better unsettled place than what I was probably 10 1015 years ago. I
Pei Mun Lim
think what helps, again, for both of us is that with experience comes two things. Yeah, this one is. One is we just get better dealing with things like that. Yeah. In the medu, the experience just gives us more gravitas. Just that, you know, we know what we’re talking about? Yeah, it’s very difficult for someone to refute and say, You don’t know what you’re talking about. Because you’re young, you’re a woman, you’re whatever that might be. Yeah. So it does get to get better through time, just naturally. Yeah, I think for the younger, the younger people coming in, I remember cap, there was an intern that I was mentoring. And she was also minority, right. And there are things that we can say like, this is how you cope when a situation comes up. But at the same time, it will get better if you just focus inwards on getting better yourself. If the craft that you choose. You just keep on finding ways to master it. Yeah. And, and, and document time when people are always asking you for your opinion, because no one knows better than you do.
Deepthi
Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Great point. Right. Yeah, exactly that in. And I’ve come to believe and I do believe it’s now that you just have to be the master of your own destiny and design your own career. Because who’s going to even if people tell you that, oh, maybe it’s too soon for promotion, or is it is it what or maybe if maybe we’ll have may have opinion and but you know, your skill You know what your inner voice is telling you, you know what you’re capable of? And how much of it Do you want to prove to others versus Yeah, it’s all it’s all literally in your hands, isn’t it? And I really believe that you can craft your way. However, the only thing is you may have probably there will be hurdles. And it’s all about how we deal with the hurdles as well. So it’s not just about having motivation, I’ll make make pink turn blue. But it’s it’s Yeah, it’s it’s it’s all the navigation and all the effects side impact of that as well as met you. For sorry, gone.
Pei Mun Lim
No, you go ahead.
Deepthi
I was going to say that, especially in architecture space. Also, it’s very, it’s not common, at least to to see a lot of women in architecture. So it’s very, so yeah, so for me, it’s been. It’s been good, because this is an area where I always wanted to be. But I also know that it’s, it’s not a common place for a lot of, or where you see a lot of film and I’m not sure of the reason Exactly. But it’s each to their own and choice. Right. So when you enter it. Yeah, yeah. How do you how do you want to react to some of that? Or not? Do you want to address some of the reactions are not totally in your control. But the thing what we can’t avoid, like what you said is getting better though, is all these reactions and all the prejudice that may exist, which is slowly getting better and better. But in my experience, I think there’s a long way to go.
Pei Mun Lim
I think, a or maybe I’m a masochist. When I first when I first started my career was in Microsoft, I was doing infrastructure network. Yeah. Microsoft exchanges, it was really, really human. male dominated. I was crawling on the desk to do printers and server rooms and all of that. And I, I just got a perverse satisfaction. I was just knowing more than on this. And so I hope that the, you know that the females coming into the industry don’t get put off. Yeah, because once you you just focus on yourself and just get so good. Yeah. But it was quite satisfying to put someone in their place. So I hope the trend continues. It is getting bigger and wider. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, definitely not as common as it was. Before I was I was one of the first marks of certified systems engineer, one of the first female 96 and I started to get a habit of carrying my little card. I don’t know if Salesforce do it. But Salesforce, Microsoft, we had this little card in my ID to prison. I’ve done it. Right. But you know, it was just a little ego trip. Just to you know, put people in their place, but there was something about just getting better at stuff myself. You can put me down.
Deepthi
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that’s that’s really great. Good to know. And also obviously, like things you’re doing as well, right? Like having an open conversation like this podcast and everything. They were obviously both Firstly, I it’s quite obvious, but both for the woman and we’re talking about all these things. So anyone who might listen to this, so it’s the kind of thoughts this may trigger and just even anything, whatever medium we can, you know, is his drive, going to drive things to find the right way? right place? I think one of this is really really good stuff, isn’t it? Because Because like we were discussing earlier, again, project deliverables, sign offs, milestone, salaries, promotions, all of this is going to be there for a larger part of our lives. But what what’s the limit of a contribution that you give to back to the society and have you making it delivered better for probably the younger generation or how it’s all all of that is equally important as well, isn’t it because we can think about us but there’s bigger elements than just my career that needs to change for a lot of things to fall in place.
Pei Mun Lim
Indeed, let me ask you one question and are you able to share what you think your biggest mistake have been in how you’ve either recovered from it or how it has changed you?
Deepthi
Yes, I can. And what comes to mind again, right now is not not speaking my mind. So there was a phase where I thought maybe I should just lie down or make it sound What do you say? appropriate to not just I curse today, that’s not what I mean. But I’m make it sound rice and fit in the boxes and just sound or just suck it up and then just move on. And
yeah,
Deepthi
probably not try hard enough to make things happen. But all the time now what I’ve learned is, if you’re not liking something, or if you’re not, let’s say if you don’t see yourself fit for a specific role, or if you think that’s not going to help your career ambitions, it’s equally important to at least have an open conversation, it’s not about whether you do that at the end of it or not. Because when you have an open conversation, then at least you know that your concerns are addressed. And you will have a clarity, whether that that helps and helps both the project in your personal aspirations as well. And you have set the expectations, right, because sometimes a lot of projects or whatever we do in our lives do fail, because you probably didn’t have didn’t set a price expectations at the very beginning. Sometimes you just accept it, and then and then you’re like, Oh, I’m gonna work my way, or run a rake through this. And that could be if that means that if it’s eating up like eight hours a day of your weekend, and probably for for, let’s say, six years, one month, six, six months, one year, then not. It’s up to you, but probably not very, not very ideal. So yeah, so that’s something that I’ve learned is try and speak your mind as much as possible, so that it’s good for everyone for you to start with, which is the most important and for good for the business as well.
Pei Mun Lim
Do you think that it’s just as important to be truthful internally as well?
Deepthi
I think 100% Yes. But what I do end up finding myself at times is I can sort of, even if I think that this may be not the right thing to do, even if it’s a small activity that I have to do in the projects, like a task or whatever. And I am okay with it. Because I can, I can look at the bigger picture and say, I need to do something now just to get to where I want to get to, as long as it’s not eating into my conscious and as long as it’s not against my ethics and morals. And as long as good good for something to get to where I want to get to I’m okay with it. Because I know that word is not ideal. It’s not going to literally every time be the way that you want it to be. But as long as it’s in the threshold range, I’m quite flexible as well. Yeah, so even if I, if I’m not fully signed up to it, I’m okay to do it. But like I said, as long as it’s within the limits.
Pei Mun Lim
So I noticed that you’ve you’ve swapped between implementation consultant to technical consultant. And basically, like I say, you know, your, your path has kind of mirrored mine so much, with the exception of you’ve never actually, according to your profile, set foot into the project management zone. Yeah. Is that something you just never thought of, or
Deepthi
I didn’t think of it. And I, I actually, at one point in my career had an option if I wanted to go into the project management versus stay on the technical side of things. I then I spoke to my mentor then. And I was told that project management is the way to go, because that’s good. And it’s little, I don’t know if it’s, that’s true or not, but just on a very high level, you can stay technology agnostic, where you will see different projects and all scale implementations, etc. But I still want it to be technical. Because I think for me one, when I say technical, I’m not a hardcore developer, right. But I think for me what I thought about what gets me the most satisfaction and know that if I solve a problem that gives me that’s, that’s where my job satisfaction is. So if I can design a solution, where when it when it when when when it gets implemented, and it is solving a part of business problem or adding some value. That’s where my job satisfaction is. And I’m not saying project management doesn’t do it. But yeah, I think the solution in pieces where I think my heart is so yeah.
Pei Mun Lim
That Well, the reason why I asked was I think I had that same moment that you had, because I could have very well gone into being a technical architect from Microsoft. Yeah, there was a particular point of time, but and I had a mentor. Right? Yeah. Who actually said I was much better at putting a team together. Right, then probably designing a solution.
Deepthi
Right. And was I’m presuming that was probably your was it that your thought process as well? Yes, it was.
Pei Mun Lim
Just like you I really enjoy I just got a huge amount of satisfaction out of building stuff already and splitting things together and seeing it solving a problem. And for someone to actually tell me, you know what your strength lies over here, which is dealing with the messy situation of getting people to do things in a specific way to achieve a specific target. I felt, I have to say, I, when I was younger, I had big ego, I will say that there’s something so satisfying about being good at what you do that people look up to you. And I felt that if I changed, that, I would lose that. And, but I, but I did think long and hard because there wasn’t enough good project managers around me. And I thought, I can do a better job than a lot of these people that I’m seeing. And that’s why I changed. And once in a while I look back with nostalgia, and what if I take them the other road? fitting? Yeah. But at the same time, for me, I think a different kind of satisfaction came about which is getting a group of people to pull together to achieve something that on their own, or with someone else couldn’t have. Couldn’t have done it in the way that I’ve done it. So that’s that. And yeah, also, the other thing is, what your mentors saying is, is kind of true, in some ways, you know, technology agnostic, and I’m going further away from technology for just granted, because I bought the solutions architect book, because I want to get back to because I something I really enjoy. I can sit in a data migration or integration workshop and really geek out on the details. Right? Um, but I couldn’t design a solution, I can understand I can talk about it. So yes, it’s only I think back fondly. Yeah. Yeah. That’s person or to ask you because it’s, it sounds like natural step, because a lot of people kind of do if you fit between functional and technical. Yeah, we then have the full grounding to actually make sure a really complex project can be made successful. Not to say that if you don’t have that background, you can’t but it just helps so much, I think, yeah, to be able to relate to your team members in the talking something and you know, straight away without them having to be a primer or briefing on that. So yeah,
Deepthi
yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s a very good good one isn’t a that’s, that’s, I think, I think it’s a big a lot. It’s an important decision as well, because I keep thinking is what my growth path might be. And I know that it’s very common in our industry to say, if you manage Ru, T, or if you know, the budgeting, if you can do that sort of stuff. And there’s a long way for you to grow up. But how, how long are you going to go with the technical side of things, but then, but but but I know that this is where I want to be? how far I can go is a question that probably eventually answer it to myself. But yeah, hopefully,
Pei Mun Lim
let me share just a small bit of perspective on this, because I have had similar type conversations with a lot of other people. And yeah, I would say that there’s one thing about project management that I I’ve now come to now is that my job is to make sure that everybody else can do their jobs properly. All the obstacles in sometimes that means just getting really dirty and having the really tough conversations really messy, messy stuff. Yeah. And just shouldering a lot of politics, shielding the team. Yeah. And I’ve kind of developed a style where I can do that. It’s a little bit. You know, I find it easy. And I find people relate to me quite easily. But I think many can’t do that. Having those difficult conversations, and just, instead of protecting the team, I think a lot of pm thing that they pass through that customer will say when is this due? And when is this due? Why is it taking so long? Yeah, when I see PMC i think that’s that’s not your job is to manage it, so that your team can do the best that they can do. And then you just keeping the boat together. Yeah. So so when you know when I’m having this conversation, I’m saying, like you are really good at what you do right now, building a solution, getting a team together, and you’re thinking about going to pm is really great and stretch you but this is one bit where maybe not everybody tells you because he can get quite tough. Yeah, and I think some people just don’t have it and can’t say no to the customer. Yeah. And they find, especially if they’re the kind who, through, you know, don’t don’t want to make people upset, or you know, the the phrase, which I am not a fan of is people pleasing. If they have that, they’re going to find a job really, really hard. So, I think it sounds and looks like that you you understand yourself enough to say this is giving you so much buzz, they don’t give it up. So keep at it. Until, until, until you’re hungry for something else.
Deepthi
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, yeah. I kept thinking about it. Like, what’s next for me? Not that I’ve become an expert in what I do. But at some point, there will be a point where I might think, what’s next for me, and the only thing that comes to my mind is what I can only think of what’s the next technology stack for me, rather than thinking about what’s the next career move, or like change of direction in the role. That’s why because I can think of robotics, Einstein, etc, might be the next thing that I may want to work on. But I’ve never thought about, like, change my role in what I’ll do next. So I will say, we’ll see how it happens. But what you said is so important about the PMS and how to deal with it. And so I’m not sure if I’m allowed to ask a question, but I’ll go ahead is, say like, what exactly what you said, I think that is a very common misconception, isn’t it that a project managers or program managers want to make things happen be very good in front of the client? But will they understand how much of an effort how much effort basically technical effort, and all the team effort goes behind in making something happen, because business can say, I want to see this in this page. But that’s not as simple as even for a sophisticated system like Salesforce, it sometimes could be quite tricky. So it’s not like you can they ask given you turn around, turn it around in a week, but there’s so much complexity and effort that goes behind it. So do you find it D? Do you find that balance art? Is it something that you use to or do you think, do you think that that’s always a little bit of a tricky line or
Pei Mun Lim
so you’re talking about estimations, yeah, and communicating estimations to actually do a piece of work?
Deepthi
It is and also, as you uncover, you may think that this may have worked, and then your team probably is telling you that it’s not that easy. So we need more time. But do you then think or the team is less efficient? Or how do you balance that?
Pei Mun Lim
So I think the one advantage that I’ve had is that almost all the team that I’ve worked with have been very good. I think if you work in a consulting environment, there’s a level of standard. Obviously, there’s some few baby who may not well, consulting life is not suitable for them. But as a general rule, I can very quickly figure out if my team is good at what they do. Right, whether they talk to me whether there’s trust there, and I will trust them in so far as how they’ve been with me. So if there’s somebody who is very close and doesn’t share, then I can’t gauge just because you’ve got a CTA in your title doesn’t mean that you’re the kind of open hearted person who will share. So I know another CTA who’s very close, and keeps everything close to his chest so that he holds all the pieces. And I find it very hard to trust somebody like that. So if there is someone, okay, let’s go back. In general, I trust my team, whatever they tell me, I will take at face value. If you say it’s going to be tough, that is what I’m going to communicate to the customer. I’ll make sure I’ll put a level of risk on it. Okay, so if you’re talking about estimation, you say, I think it’s going to take two days. But possibly, if I hit a problem, it’s going to take five, I will tell that to the customer. What if it takes time? Hang on, hang on one second. All right. Before that, before that, I will also make sure that the number that’s given to me has all the requisite non functionals. Make sure you got your test classes done. Do you have deployment in there? Do you have QA in there? Do you have documentation in there ? Have you written in the tech solution now to be updated new JIRA, da da da da da that at the end, what’s that number? Okay. And then I will make sure depending on where we are in the project, you know, I will have to add, you know, do I have to oversee things do I have to go and get a beat all of that put into that. So let’s say if it was two days, he thinks it’s two days it might take five, but it takes 10 right? So that’s a really hard conversation to have a customer. That’s my job. Right? Because I’m trusting my my team. I’ve made sure I’ve done my due diligence, I’ve put my level of the buffer on it, which I think will be required for deployment for testing for documentation. Whoa. But it takes longer because we hit a really big snack. I will have to tell the customer that I will have to replan it first. And I say, right, actually, it’s going to take 10 days because of these reasons. And then internally, I might have the conversation internal to say why it’s 10. Maybe because that resource has exaggerated on their CV. I’ve heard that before. In terms of them saying they could do something, but they couldn’t. I’ve also had a situation where something came up, which we absolutely did not anticipate. And then I’ll have an internal conversation to my company to say, hey, look, this problem came up, I think it will is we should split the cost, we should absorb half because so I will make a recommendation on what that situation is. And then I’ll go to the customer and say this is a situation and this is how we are handling it. And I’m talking to you to absorb the other half.
Deepthi
Right. Okay, that’s your question. Yeah, no, no, no, no, that’s exactly that’s exactly what I wanted to know. That’s really good. Because like what you said could be for multiple reasons, isn’t it? So what I was curious to know was, would that create a certain impression about that specific team member or the team? In your mind? Or would you be careful from the next time to when you put this when you work with the same person again? Or that that’s sort of what I was thinking? Because people do, obviously, in respect to how experienced you are you obviously learn as as you go in your career, isn’t it? So yeah.
Pei Mun Lim
So what I do is every single new team member and again, back to cap is one of the things we cap is, because it’s so big, every new project is a completely different team. Here, almost what I do with every single person is I have a short one to one. And I say this is my leadership style. And I expect full transparency. If you are fully transparent with me, I will back you up. Even the beginning I you’re given a task. And you’re told you’ve got two days to do this, and you feel really overwhelmed and you think this is beyond you, you must tell me and I’ll find a way to deal with it, you do not sit with it, you do not stay with it evenings and weekends and trying to fulfill it, and then just absolutely melting down. If you do that I can’t help you must tell me at the start. So I made sure that I lay a very transparent communication within my team here doesn’t happen. So I don’t get it has happened. But I’m reducing the likelihood of someone hiding something from me that I don’t already know. Like, if that person tells me it’s going to take two days, possibly five, and it ends up being 10. I will trust that person to not have known that it was going to be 10 when he told me in the first place. And I will find a way to back them up. Because not default. Things happen. Yeah. So I don’t get into the situation where I’ll think I’m not going to trust that person anymore. Unless theyve given me a reason not to. Right. Okay, that’s really, that’s really nice sensory back to what you were saying. It’s about setting the expectations. really clear. And I do that, with everyone in my team, this is who I am, I will back you up. As long as you’re honest with me, you flag up, you keep me up to date with your progress. And you don’t try and hide things.
Deepthi
Yeah, true. I mean, as the project manager, you might create that channel for people to to be open and have those open conversations, isn’t it? But then I guess it also, there may be a dynamic of different personalities, and the people want to talk and how much of information or detail they share and all of that as well. And which is the aspect of project management I personally find a bit tricky, is it’s not, it’s not purely skill based or anything. It’s a lot of personality and how you deal with different personalities as well. Right? Not just internally, internally or externally. You just bring everyone together, which I think is quite a big challenging task. But yeah,
Pei Mun Lim
let me tell you a secret. And the secret to emotional intelligence is really active, empathetic listening. Do people do that? So very common, isn’t it? No, it’s not. But I do that. And because I volunteer for Samaritans means that I’m on the phone with people who might who I might violently disagree with but I don’t see. And I’m very empathetic. And I find that unlocked so many things. So just by saying can you tell me what is it just truthfully what is it that bothering you? And not being judgmental about it don’t get people to open up even those who are very antagonistic. Yeah, they know you’re sincere. You’ve got no agenda, you’re not going to get in trouble for the fun of it, they will respond. Which I think what I found has been easy for me to create things, you know, to function well, yeah, yeah. That’s really great. I’m very conscious of time, and very respectful of yours. I just want to thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed it again, because I said, you know, your, your path kind of mirrors mine. And the fact that one of the companies you work for this was one of the first companies that I did my project on. And also, you know, sharing a lot of your learnings from working on projects in your personal narrative around the challenges you’ve had. Yep, within the tech wall. And I’m pretty sure that our listeners will find it very, very useful and very valuable. Thank you so much for your time.
Deepthi
Oh, that’s great. Absolutely. Anytime and thanks to you as well. This is this is a great idea. And I think it’s a great platform and medium and content you’re generating says absolutely brilliant. Thanks to you.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you very much. Bye for now. All right. Mr. Stop