S.2 Episode 20 with my good friend Maya Weintraub Kaye, Associate Partner at #IBM is now up!
I love Maya because we are very similar in our #ProjectManagement approach. Creating high performing teams to deliver quality project is our number 1 core value.
We’ve had our share of ‘character-building’ (read: bloody) projects, and it’s true – the rules are made by blood (check out her visceral analysis below!) 🤕
We talk about SO many topics close to my heart
– methodologies for consulting projects
– modulating language to adapt communication to cultural differences
– managing remote teams
– how to manage dysfunction
– what to do when someone isn’t a good fit for the team
– and lessons for the younger self
Wow, this was jam packed… and we could have talked for HOURS.
I really hope you’ll enjoy listening to this podcast – especially if you want to level up your project #leadership skills!
Spotify link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/60iHxUbiWZHI9sd4702dix?si=OEgFVfRDQE6Gt0xdJENf-Q
#OnThePeiroll
Transcript
Pei Mun Lim 0:05
Hello, and welcome to another episode of OnThePeiroll. This is where I talk about all my favorite topics, which is project management, project delivery, consulting, Salesforce leadership, great teams, and just doing great projects. And today, I get to speak to somebody I worked with before it Capgemini. Her name is Maya Kay. She’s also a Senior Project Manager. And we, you know, we just dive deep into things like methodology, and what makes a good project manager and how she’s dealt with some of the most challenging projects, the lessons she’s learned from all of those, and how to deal with different cultures and different people. And in a world where we’re so distributed and so remote, how do you make sure that you get everyone on the same page so that you can deliver great projects, this was something I could have carried on talking for quite a while. But we had to stop somewhere. So I really hope that you enjoy this one. I think you will, particularly if you have a project management brain, or if you enjoy things like that. Will I do so you can tell I was totally pumped up during this episode. Thanks a lot. And I hope you enjoyed this.
Hi, my, thank you so much for making the time to sit down and record this podcast for me. How are you today?
Maya 1:42
I’m good. Thank you. I’m very flattered and honored. A it’s been great fun working with you. And now catching up again. It’s really a pleasure.
Pei Mun Lim 1:53
I likewise, as well, I think we started around the same time it kept in I was so excited to finally Engagement Manager starting the same time as me. And then we went through lots of things together. And it was really good to have you as one of my peers. So this is a good opportunity for me to dive in a little bit more, do your journey. So I would love to hear your story of where you came from and how you get to where you are today.
Maya 2:23
It’s actually very interesting when I believe that what I do now is very much linked what I started thinking I’m going to do, which I guess almost 20 years later, not a lot of people can say that. When I was thinking what I want to do with myself, I really liked it, manufacturing, I liked processes. After the army in Israel, I went to work for a factory. And I was literally an assembly line worker. And I looked around and I saw there was a chemical engineer and there was a marketing and there were the finances. And there were the logistics. And I actually looked at the CFO. And I said that’s what I want to be what do I need to be that. And then when I went to look for a career to study, I chose technology management, because that had in it elements of industrial engineering, and computer science, and HR and corporate law. And it gave you like a rounded view of what it is to work for a corporate company. So I graduated four years of Bachelor of Science in Technology Management. And actually, I, throughout my career very much started and touched on project management. So at my first job, I was doing financial control. And I was working in the aviation industry. And then in my second job, I moved to a consulting company for project management. So I was helping them improve MS Project. And we were doing customized development of MS project to help project managers. So I was a consultant going around high tech companies, teaching project managers how to use better or easier ms projects to manage their own projects. And after that, I joined Amdocs and I was also in the consulting division. And there I was a PMO. And I was part of the ISV so I was part of the internal development of the software, not so much the implementation of it. And then with that company, I moved to Mexico, and I was part of the site management there. So I was working suddenly client base to try to get from the client all the inputs that we needed. And then I moved to nice and do call center optimization. So it’s all everything that has to do with the call recording, and workforce management and interaction analytics to try to analyze big data and understand how to get information. And there I was customer Business Manager, which is basically original customer manager or customer success manager, it’s called. And then I moved with them to the UK, still with nice, and I became a program manager and I was working for several financial institutions and utilities companies. And from nice and move to Salesforce, Salesforce, the mothership ISV company, I was engaged with manager there, and the reputation of Salesforce for being engaged with managers predominantly sales. At that point, it was about 80%. Coe and answering to being the service hand, have a requirement and needing to create an Esso W and create the whole framework around the proposal, the service proposal. And then I moved to Capgemini for the past four years where I implement Salesforce in multiple clouds, multiple verticals. And really each project is so different, it can be a different financial model, whether it’s time and material or fixed price, it can be all rolled there is completely different. Sometimes I’m a delivery manager managing loads of tiny staff, augmentation engagements, and other one I am managing agents. So we actually as Capgemini don’t deliver anything, we’re the over head layer that manages the third party suppliers for certain clients. And even once I got borrowed for Microsoft Dynamics, because I could suddenly I started learning about dynamics fNo, which is financials and operations, which I didn’t know before. So Capgemini definitely is a roller coaster of opportunities with a very big variety.
Pei Mun Lim 7:13
Wow, I really liked hearing everything that you’ve done. It sounds like it’s predominantly project management. That’s the thing that that is you and to say that, Oh, I want to be that CEO. Oh, how do I get there? It sounds like pretty focused your your your career journey has been pretty focused on what is it about project management that you like so much.
Maya 7:35
I have to tell you, I think I’ve taken it to the extreme, I feel that in my personal life, I also projects my life. I like planning, I like order. I like the predictability. And I like to have a team, I in my personal life, I like friends and company and family to create a team. I’m very much stronger in being either a team leader or taking part of a team. Rather than being an individual contributor, I feel lost if I can’t like talk to other people and throw ideas around. So that’s really something I enjoy. I also enjoy helping people. A lot of my career, I wasn’t hands on project manager, but I did aspects of project management. And I felt that one of the best parts is solving problems. And another part is obviously communication with clients. So understanding what they need, being able to deliver to their requirements, being able to shape their needs, so they get the best of what they want, and not go and scatter from the amount of requirements that they have. And, and I like the fact that there are a lot of methodologies when I when I learned more about agile or about Scrum or about caf, it just, it makes sense.
Pei Mun Lim 9:14
So just for the listeners, Caf is the Capgemini agile framework. Yes, yes. Okay. So, methodology is something that I really liked talking about. So in your, in your tenure as a consulting project manager, what sort of methodologies have been the most effective in the projects that you’ve worked on?
Maya 9:39
I have to tell you that it’s not only about being a consultant, I think it has very much to do with what you’re implementing. When I was working in Nice, that was almost 10 to 10 to seven years ago, it was predominantly on prem. So the servers were on low K Shouldn’t it wasn’t cloud based like it is so much leveraged today. And the system that I was implementing there was more plug and play, the configuration was more hardware, or it fit the the waterfall methodology here working on Salesforce implementations, because it’s such a varied platform, I feel that agile, and the iterative approach is so much more suitable. I think if you try to implement Salesforce with, with a waterfall methodology, it’s taking a round peg and putting it in a square hole, because you’re trying to fit it. But actually, there is absolutely no way that you know what you want from the system from the beginning, up to the end, that you get it into your hands and start playing with it. So that flexibility, I think, is very much what I lobby for when we need to create proposals for clients. And that’s how I manage my projects. So even if I do have a fixed scope project, I will try to have an iterative approach of development and testing with the client. So they will see it as early as possible. And they would raise any problems that they have. So we can fix them earlier rather than later.
Pei Mun Lim 11:30
Let me drill down into the nuances of that. So when, okay, so if, if I look at the projects that I’ve been on, we generally do have discovery, right up front. And it’s only then that we do iterative, which is not, in my opinion, not pure agile, because for pure agile, you need to deploy to production after every spring. So my opinion, and I’m happy to have that conversation with those who have maybe worked on much, much larger projects, like for yourself, you’ve worked on using Kafka, which I haven’t, is that what I found is that larger, more complex projects have got elements of data migration, and integration doesn’t fit very well into a pure agile delivery. Would you say that’s about correct, or you have a point of view,
Maya 12:25
I have to say, it’s very much, in my opinion, my experience, there have been very, very rare cases where you can actually stick to the methodology of pure agile, I think in almost every project I needed to manage, there were some elements who needed deep planning at the beginning, and only then you probably can introduce pure agile when you’re doing DevOps, when something is already very much big baseline to deployed. And the increments are small, when you need to build from scratch when it’s a new Oregon sales force. And you literally need to create it from the basic platform, or when you need to do a transformation. The planning in the beginning needs to be thought in many different levels, you need to understand the architecture, you need to understand the business change elements, you need to understand the marketing elements of what how that system is going to be used. And you need to consult with the user representatives, depending of on whether that system is very much UI based, you need to have UI workshops to literally mock up and draw up as much as you can the expected user experience because if they have a vision in their head, nothing that you can write in words will be as strong as trying to mock up something for them to see it in front of them. So again, it varies like if it’s a ecommerce implementation, I would strongly invest in a UI workshop, because it’s so much driven by external customers looking at a website, if it’s an internal system, again, trying to understand what is the day job of these users, if it’s a utilities companies like some, let’s say a water company, these people usually be started when they were 16 and grew in that company. So there is a mindset to understand in terms of the objection to change in terms of the measurement of how their how their job is measured. If they until now we’re able to hide different aspects. And now things are going to be a lot more visible and measurable and reportable. People are going to object. And it’s all it’s all a puzzle, to try to drive your client to think about these elements and to say I can help you with all of these element And, but I suggest you handle them in a certain way, whether you have some sort of dedicated team to work on it, or you want us to help you out. But please put some thought into those parts.
Pei Mun Lim 15:14
That sounds like a broad range of projects that you’ve been on. And you can draw a lot of experience from that. slipping back, can you you don’t have to go into specifics, can you share your favorite project, and why it’s a favorite one,
Maya 15:30
it’s very hard. I have to say, probably my favorite project was an E commerce project of developing a COVID test management system, it was probably the most challenging one, because the government kept changing the requirements of my system. So it wasn’t even up to the client, I couldn’t go to the client and blame them for changing the requirements because they were led by the government response to COVID. So a it made it very relevant. And literally everything that was on the news was very much reflected in our system. It was exciting because I was working at C suite level, because it was a growing company at an exponential level, it was very challenging, because we started with an MVP, and then we grew it to 5 million size project. So it exponentially grew, the number of team members grew. And like I said, I think we built a good relationship with that client that they listened to all kinds of aspects that I said that we need to think of like when I mentioned, how about, we listened to penetration testing, how about we try to identify how we deal with this element. They listened. And they gave it some thought. And I felt that there was very good collaboration towards getting them to where they wanted,
Pei Mun Lim 16:58
that it was successful, because of many elements around it being challenging it being relevant. And also the client actually bought in and listen to you to help make it a success.
Maya 17:12
It was very challenging. Obviously, there were a lot of times that they didn’t understand why we’re so why we’re taking so long to do something, obviously, they never, the client never understands the technology in detail. So it’s this balance of not drowning them with details, but also trying to reflect the the difficulty, or the complexity of a certain aspect of a feature that they wanted.
Pei Mun Lim 17:38
Let me ask you a slightly different question. Again, you don’t have to provide specifics. But can you share a project, maybe that in your personal opinion, didn’t go wasn’t as successful, and one that has changed you the most? changed, maybe change your outlook or change how you approach people or certain scenarios, something that taught you the biggest lesson. So most of the time people say, failures are the biggest teachers. So that’s what I’m trying to draw whether there’s any.
Maya 18:25
I was managing a project where literally I was brought into save the day, it was already escalated. And we had the most unfortunate set of circumstances possible. We had the project was sold as a fixed price and fixed scope. It didn’t go through the right approvers. And there were some changes requested by the clients that were made without consultation with the appropriate parties. When we started, the project didn’t have any governance. So there wasn’t a project manager sold as part of the deal. When they did the scoping sessions, there were no notes taken. So literally, if you needed to go something you needed to go back and listen to hours and hours of recording. The person who led the scoping session resigned. The other person who was the architect that was supporting went on maternity leave. So the project just had challenges from every aspect. You had a very frustrated client. They didn’t feel that they were heard. They didn’t feel that there was anyone on the other side that gives them any feedback or support. And you had a very frustrated team that the project team was very frustrated because they didn’t know how to react they didn’t have anyone to go to and they needed to face the client themselves. Sometimes they were Junior parties and junior resources that have never faced that situation before. So it was daunting. So I want to say that that has taught me the most, because it’s such a rare opportunity that you can learn from mistakes, right? You literally went into a situation where so much. So many circumstances have gone wrong, that it was just literally the classic lesson learned project, to take it as a case study of what not to do. And we say in the Israeli army, that the rules are made by blood, the rules are made by experience of bad projects that go sour. And I think that was the reason I would say that that is the most influential project I had. So far.
Pei Mun Lim 20:48
You know, that sounds very similar to one that I walked through as well. And as you were talking, I could feel my year the hairs coming up, just on PTSD, from, you know, those sort of, so when you say fixed price, and all the other elements, it sounds like no notes were taken, then requirements were not really pinned down, and the customers expecting something. And two, I recall having many meetings about is this a change? Or is this what was included in scope, like constantly. And those are really, really challenging. I want to ask you about leadership styles. In particular, the fact that you worked in different countries, you know, so it’s real. In Mexico and in UK, can you just share your learnings from the different places that you’ve been in how, how things are done in how you’ve had to adapt as you moved? different continents.
Maya 21:56
I think that was one of my biggest challenges. So predominantly, I worked in three different languages. In Israel, I worked in, in Hebrew, with English when we needed to work with people abroad. And in Mexico, again, it was in Spanish and English together, depending where you needed to address and then in the UK, predominantly in English. But I did have colleagues from the Ukraine where I suddenly used my Russian to suppose to speak to and then suddenly, I had colleagues in Capgemini, who were Romanian, so I used Romanian to talk to them. It’s very hard to work in language, that you’re not as proficient work, talking and working in the languages is very different. I have to say, in Israel, we’re very direct, we’re very high speed, we don’t sit and plan and are not as diligent to cross all the t’s and dot all the i’s, we get going a lot faster. And we fix it on the fly. It’s it’s the pure agile way, right? Where you were you you start with something and you adapt. And in Mexico, the culture is a lot more formal, I needed to learn how to draft emails that were very long, with a paragraph of introduction and a paragraph of closure. And I learned a lot from my sales representative. So the count execs I worked with, were always my go to people because they were the people that I felt are the most eloquent. And the best way to, to come across and to bring the point to live was usually done by the account Exec. So when I was in Mexico, I was very much liaising with my sales manager and just trying to learn from him or I would go to him and say, Listen, I have this difficult message. How do I write that in a way that’s more polite and easier on the ear? And in the UK? I guess it’s a combination. It depends who your client is the personalities, the vertical, like I said, in different verticals, you would find different people with different styles. But the UK is also I would say, less confrontational than the Mexican or the Latin culture. And it’s in the middle between the Israeli and the Mexican culture. So I’m kind of now taking from both experiences and trying to find my way to fit to the to the British culture.
Pei Mun Lim 24:38
Thank you. I didn’t realize that you were that multilingual. So just share with me are all the languages that you can converse in.
Maya 24:46
So I speak five languages. Hebrew, English, Spanish, Romanian and Russian.
Pei Mun Lim 24:53
Wow. So um, what’s the level of competence? Are they all business language? and you can write in speak, for work.
Maya 25:04
So I can work in three languages, which is Hebrew, English and Spanish, predominantly because of my experience in Mexico, and remaining Russian are conversational. They’re languages that were taught to me by my parents and my family. So in Russian, I can’t write at all I can read only in capital letters. And in Romanian, because it’s a Latin language, it’s easier to read. And my vocabulary is a lot like a lot wider. Also, English and Spanish are similar. So I guess working in Mexico gave me a world of vocabulary that I didn’t know in Romanian because my, my father never needed to say documentation to me, for instance, so it’s it’s this kind of combination between languages that helped a lot.
Pei Mun Lim 25:56
Okay, thank you. I’m just sick of being slightly because it’s very topical. Share with me your the we talked about this this one time we had lunch about the origins where your parents came from and things like this, can you just share a little bit?
Maya 26:16
So my dad is Romanian. He was born in Bucharest I was also born in Bucharest, which is the capital of Romania. My mother was raised and brought up in Moldova, which at that time was part of the USSR. However, Moldova was an area where it kept changing hands between the Soviets and the Romanians. And eventually, my mom married my dad and moved to Romania, to Romania as well. So she lived there for 12 years she had, they had my sister and myself, when I was a year and a half, the communist situation in Romania was very difficult. And my parents decided that they want a better future. And we emigrated to Israel.
Pei Mun Lim 27:00
You know, all of that, I think the history of the person shapes who we are today and we like the fact that you so versatile, both in language as well as in leadership style in managing team. So caps got a lot of outsource offshore, sir, no outsource offshore teams, offshore nation, things like that. How do you find managing the offshore team members in India? What do you do? Do you have any strategy to try? And so this is obviously before the pandemic, where there was a clear delineation of video calls when generally reserved for those who are offshore. And we were, you know, face to face, if possible, what did you do to try and create a sense of team of family within teams, when they’re often
Maya 27:54
I have to say that I had dispersed and distributed teams almost throughout my career. However, in Capgemini, I think I had four or even five countries, and or different origin, sometimes external contractors, and sometimes third party companies, sometimes Capgemini employees from different countries. So at a certain time, I had sometimes secondees. So people that were kind of borrowed from a different country. And each one within Capgemini had a different process. But when they’re part of the project, they’re all the same. It doesn’t matter where they’re coming from. The main point about working hours was critical. So we had the critical working hours where we said, let’s say from 10, to four, UK, the teams needed to be online and be able to collaborate and then the additional time, we would fit to the different time zones. I was very strict, especially with my clients to make sure that they don’t schedule meetings that require offshore presence after 1:30pm Even though I know that sometimes I work offshore client will short colleagues would stay longer, but I wanted to make sure that at least a meeting doesn’t start later than that. And it’s their prerogative to want to stay later. And I turned on my camera along, I tried to show them that there is it doesn’t matter where you’re from. I want to know your holidays. I want to know your culture. I want to know everything about what you celebrated like today is a national holiday in India. So I have felt like a team members off. So when they come back, I would love for them. We spent five minutes of the standup to talk about the holiday and what did you do and how you celebrate and it gives a bit of context to where people are coming from. It’s not just the name something something also very important to me. I try to learn their names correctly. I don’t call them Joe. If Their name is Joe Tinder, for instance, I would ask them how they would like me to pull them. And sometimes when there’s an issue with understanding each other, I would try to reiterate. So they would say something. And when they will finish, I would say, let me summarize my understanding, and tell me if that’s correct. And the other way around, I would try to make sure that if I provide a message, they would reiterate after me, okay, so would you think the next step should be, instead of me telling you what the next step should be? So it bridges a bit of language gaps. And it bridges a bit of the fear sake, but sometimes in different cultures, you have a bit of hierarchy. And I want to make sure that within a project there, there is, there are basically there is very little room for hierarchy. So in a project, I would create a project leadership team. So the project manager, the architect, the team lead, the test manager, the business analyst, those are the people that look forward, we look at the next sprint, we’ll look at the next scope. But the team lead and the Scrum Master, are the people that look inside the current work. And if they have an issue, then they can escalate to us. So we can then look to incorporate that in the next phases. However, when we have a stand up, or when we have an issue, there is no hierarchy. So I managed 34 people, but I had one on one conversations with each of them. Because it was important for me, for them to know that the door is open. And also to understand hidden problems. Like if they don’t get along with some of the other team members, I would never know that through stand ups or different calls. But that’s my style. When you have a bigger team, obviously, when you start managing in the hundreds, you need to have bigger hierarchy level. In my experience, I tried to have still keep that personal touch. Because I feel sometimes you wouldn’t get to understand challenges if you don’t drill down
Pei Mun Lim 32:18
into what other kind of team? What are the things within a team that you find most challenging to work with? In terms of behavior approach? Or mindset? What are the things that you think this is creating dysfunction? I don’t like it and I need to do something about it. What are the kinds of behaviors that you, you can help highlight? So you know, when audience Listen, they’ll think, okay, I need to make sure that I do the opposite? Do you want to share some of your pet peeves?
Maya 32:51
Let me let me focus on three. So I would say one of the things that I tried to make sure in a distributed team is that they’re able to communicate something as silly as an accent. When I had a Ukrainian team lead interview, an Indian colleague, I needed to make sure that they understand each other, they can’t possibly work together, even though they’re both very proficient and professional if they can’t understand each other. So sometimes I needed to make a choice. I always interview the people, not, not the technical side, but also the communication style. And I provide my expectation from the role. And that’s one of the things that I have to say I focus on when when I choose which team members to join together in one group. The other thing I want to say is probably when you have a personality of a person who’s very much an introvert doesn’t want to speak on the stand. He doesn’t want to present to the client. We need to understand people styles. When we distribute tasks, I always ask, are you comfortable to take that task, and if you’re not, please ping me offline. And I did have sometimes challenges understanding people’s styles or people’s comfort level. And it would do an injustice to the client and to the person if you would have someone who’s very proficient and it’s very good demonstrate and do a demo. But he doesn’t want to be on camera and doesn’t want to be recorded. He’s embarrassed he he wants to develop and look inside rather than outside. So I think that’s a very important point to understand about people’s personalities. And I guess the third part is also the conflict between people so sometimes pure agile, can mean chaos. Some people don’t know in like, too many opinions. They like to be told what Do you need to identify that you need to identify people that are very good, but they need things broken down to them, they need someone else to make decisions. And other people, you can create meaning groups to say, Okay, you guys, all three of you are working on this feature. So you will have your collaboration chat. And there is no leader. It’s a back end developer, a front end developer and functional consultant, and they need to work together and distribute the task between them. So you let them self manage. So identifying the personality, the comfort level of each person, and trying to match that to the overall goal of what you’re trying to achieve. is, I think, a very important point too long.
Pei Mun Lim 35:46
Have there been situations where you’ve had to remove people from your team? How just give some examples? And how did you manage that.
Maya 35:56
So there, there were, there are different reasons right? That that should happen. You have the normal roll off period where people you identify, you look at the scope, and you realize, actually, that person is no longer needed, I need more of this skill set. So you have a candid conversation, I will talk to that person, I would explain that looking at the scope, that particular skill set is no longer needed. And there is a role of procedure, so they can start transitioning the knowledge and creating any documentation that is needed before they roll it off. There another scenario is that you have a skill gap. So that person was trying to achieve their goals, and were to fulfill that particular role. But there are either multiple human errors. So I reached out to that person. And I said, if you can identify where you find that you’re struggling, so we can understand how to help you. We tried to do that within the project team. However, we found that by having that person have someone else shadow or buddy him, it created a deficit in terms of our velocity. And therefore I involved their practice. So they’re their team to see if there is someone else that can buddy and help. That is not part of the project. That was also something we implemented. And that’s the third point where we said, okay, like an improvement plan, right? This is what we need to get done. Do you feel that you’re able to do that, we put the right support in place, let’s review this in two weeks time. And if in two weeks time, that didn’t happen, I needed to tell that particular developer that that it doesn’t work out for this project. And then I write a review. And I tried to give visibility to either the resource manager, or the next project manager to identify skill gap to say, hey, if that person wants to work on that this is the gap. Or B, maybe that person should work on this particular type of tasks, and he should do other types of tasks.
Pei Mun Lim 38:08
I really enjoyed what the topic of the discussion so far. Now, if you were to look back, and you had a time machine, and yet you were able to go back 20 years, and talk to the younger version of you. What would you say to her? Do you think you would have any advice on what not to do? In which case, you know, the things that you learn? Or do you say stay the course you’re on the right track to getting that CEO type role that you’ve always wanted?
Maya 38:42
I think the main point I would tell myself is to observe more the politics. I’m really bad at that I don’t look at I don’t look for that. I feel that being myself isn’t enough. Or maybe it’s a bit naive sometimes. As a younger version of me, I didn’t look who’s friends of who outside of work. I didn’t. I didn’t try to learn how people get ahead. I just felt that you just do a good job and you apply for something else. And if you’re good enough, you’ll get it. But I think there are additional layers that you need to work on and be proficient in. And I’m still mastering it. It’s not that I will ever finish learning it I suppose. It has to do with people. I love people I like talking to people I enjoy talking to my colleagues outside of work. But I think maybe as a youngster to try to look around a bit more on managing my manager managing my progression and not just hope that if you apply for something you get in so now one of the things I tell my review ease or the people that I buddy that are new into the company, I tell them own your career path. No one would own it for you help your manager open doors for you to achieve what you want to do. But you tell your manager what you want to achieve, tried to set your goals, try to, to see what your aspirations are. And then you can discuss with your manager ways to achieve that. It’s very hard for a person to tell someone else what their goals should be.
Pei Mun Lim 40:28
Absolutely, thank you very much. I want to be very mindful of your time. So thank you so much for just making space to talk to me. It’s been a wonderful experience catching up and also getting an opportunity to listen to the other stuff that you’ve worked on. And the things that especially your career histories are some of the I knew, or even that you spoke five languages. So that’s been great. Thank you so much, Maya.
Thank you very much