I had a great conversation with Justin Greenberg in my next #podcast#OnThePeiroll, now live!
In this episode, I talk to Justin Greenberg, who is a current Salesforce Admin/Project Manager/Business Analyst/Product Owner – wearer of many hats at Confidio.
We talk about how he broke into the Salesforce ecosystem, along with his tips on how to nab jobs that you may not necessarily know requires Salesforce knowledge.
Link 👇🏻
Enjoy 😊
Transcript
Pei Mun Lim
Hello, Justin, welcome to my podcast called OnThePeiroll. How are you today?
Justin
I’m doing well. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Pei Mun Lim
I am really glad that you said yes, I know it’s quite early for you down in Maryland. Yes, America. Okay. Um, I like your I like your profile, because it’s quite interesting. And I’m not gonna steal it. Thunder, can you just walk us through a little bit about your profile? And how you got to where you are today?
Justin
Yeah, great question. So I like most, when you get out of college, you’re not sure what you’re going to do with your life, you’re, you’re kind of at a crossroads. And, you know, one thing that I that I realized I should do, I’m sure being a communications major was, you know, be in sales, that’s, you know, that can be, you know, a lucrative position. It’s challenging. And, you know, they’re, you know, it allows me to challenge myself. So while I was in, you know, the sales, you know, industry, you know, there was one thing that I was consistently using, regardless of what type of sales role I was in, and it was a CRM system. It wasn’t necessarily Salesforce. But I really enjoyed, you know, being able to go into, you know, a CRM system and use it as my my business. And as I became a recruiter, I saw the Salesforce job market, and I started to understand it a little bit more, I started to make a little bit of changes and understand how it works. And although I thought I understood completely everything Salesforce related, I totally did not. But I played a little bit in trailhead, and I got some experience. And as I was recruiting, I was applying for jobs in the CRM system. So I was lucky enough to get, you know, a government job that was related to CRM systems. And that was kind of my first breaking point. And in the CRM world, I was able to network, you know, at the Salesforce higher ed summit, and I was able to really just, you know, gain experience from others, I think that’s one of the most incredible parts of the Salesforce ecosystem is everybody is very, you know, capable and willing to share their knowledge. And I think that sets us apart from any other industry, which is, which is incredible in so many ways. You know, I have a Slack channel, right now that I’m part of, and if I have, you know, 10 questions to ask, I get 20 different answers, which is, which is unheard of, in most industries. So that’s kind of what brought me to, you know, Salesforce, and I’ve kind of since then, you know, I’ve drank the Kool Aid, so to speak. So it’s been rewarding, definitely.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you, for us. And I just want to ask a question, when you when you move from recruitment to the position with that government organisations, how did you make the break, because I think that’s what a lot people want to know, especially what happened last year with the pandemic. And a lot of people who lost their jobs and also with a very attractive Well, the announcement was a new but the fact that Salesforce was committing has committed to growing the sector and growing the jobs. Lots of people came into the ecosystem in a way through trailhead. Let’s go learn, let’s get you to understand the product, get my certifications, but they’re coming from a totally different industry. How did you break in? So that’s kind of like what happened to you, right?
Justin
Yeah, no, it’s a really it’s a good question. It’s a fair question. So my role at the university it it was actually not called. Like, it wasn’t a Salesforce administrators. It was called an industry Alliance specialist, but it was a Salesforce administrator role. So I have on my resume, Salesforce, industry Alliance specialist slash Salesforce administrator. So I think that what people need to be able to do in specially in this competitive marketplace is have a hybrid role and be okay with that hybrid role. And at my current job, I still I do Salesforce ba work, but I’m still on the sales operation side. Because if you’re a Salesforce Ba, typically you do have a role in sales operations. It’s a very integral role. And my job is to you know, push back and, you know, gather requirements. And it’s good that I have that sales background because I’m able to make decisions and say, Okay, well, here’s how we should think about it differently, I’ve actually used this tool, this is how it works, this is how we’re going to, you know, face a bump in the road. So, you know, that’s how I broke into the industry is, I didn’t just apply for Salesforce admin roles. And luckily, the role that I’m in now has completely migrated to just being a Salesforce Ba, but I originally was doing sales operations as well. And I think you have to be able to compete for the value that you believe that you have. And that that value is okay, well, I’m doing both roles. But we really need to focus our efforts here, because there’s a growing demand related to Salesforce. So it’s really finding, I think, what people need to do in this job market is be okay with going with a junior admin role be okay with going for a sales ops role that can, you know, translate to Salesforce admin slash Salesforce ba work. I, you know, noticed people, you know, in my, you know, user groups that have that have done that. And it’s been a tremendous amount of experience and a learning experience for a lot of people, you have to multitask, you have to think critically, you have to think, you know, you know, 10 steps ahead of most people, which is a good skill to have, regardless of you know, what your title is. So that’s kind of how I broke in, if that makes sense.
Pei Mun Lim
Yes, it does. Yes, it does. So you mentioned earlier on about the BA and self operation, that, which is what you currently do. So I’m going to put in on that, we’ll come back to it. So just going back to the question, and you said you were talking about hybrid roles. And that sounds very, very keys to breaking in. However, I’ve got this question which, which will have two facets. One is for recruiters, and the other one is towards job seekers. And I’m looking at the role that you’ve got at the university. It’s called industry align specialists. If that was the role that was being advertised, how on earth would I know that that’s a Salesforce specific role or related roles? How did you find out what’s that what they advertise,
Justin
so it’s Yeah, that is what they advertise, I did a Google Alert on my computer that got pushed my phone, and anytime there was like a CRM keyword, I read that, and I looked over the job. So I had two triggers, I had CRM, and then I had Salesforce. So anytime that got triggered, I would get an alert, and I would, you know, apply for it. And that’s, that’s really how I, you know, put that on my radar. And with these, with some of these jobs, and I found this out, even when we’re hiring at our company, they’re trying to define the job role. Sometimes people don’t even know what the correct title for your position is. And I think that’s what happened at University of Maryland, where I was where I was working, they didn’t, they really didn’t know much about Salesforce. So they put it as an industry Alliance specialist, but it really was a Salesforce administrator role. So it’s finding those those small, little, you know, breadcrumbs and being able to capitalize on it.
Pei Mun Lim
I love that I love the fact that you using your background in recruitment to actually help you get the job that you want. And if possible, I don’t know if that’s possible to just dig a little deeper into that. I’m bringing your SEO recruitment hats on, how would you and I like a tip that you provided around that Google Keyword? Is there anything else? What are the kinds of things that you tell candidates to do when they’re looking for their job? Apart from the what you’ve just said, putting in Google keywords, what else can they do to find that job, that hybrid role that gets them foot into where they want to end up?
Justin
Yeah, so if there’s anyone on LinkedIn, or any companies that you’re interested in, if you connect with people, you automatically see their posts, you’re automatically you have one step further into that company, you have one step further into that industry. So I think that that’s really important is following companies that you’re interested in, following industries that that you’re interested in. That can definitely give you a leg up. It’s funny, there was this. There’s this girl in my I have like an admin working group and she’s really she’s really brilliant, really smart. She said, Can you look over my resume? So I looked over her resume and I was like, there’s like your, you have four certifications like that, that’s extremely important. Like, you need to put that at the top of your list, like you need to put that like your name, four times certified. People are looking at those things. And sometimes people have the experience, but they literally just don’t know how to put it in their resume. And I think that you do need to take an investment in your resume. You know, when I was looking over this, this person’s, you know, resume, I said, You’re missing some some things that I know you use, you use flows, use process builders, use validation rules, you need to put those things in your resume, because what recruiters do, because I’ve done it myself, is you open up someone’s resume, and you start searching for keywords. If those keywords aren’t there, you can be missed. So, um, you know, it can always go through an applicant tracking system, but there are going to be recruiters who are looking for those buzzwords, and some recruiters can be very impatient. And they’re not, they’re gonna say, okay, those words aren’t there, once the next resume. So you just want to be sure that you’re covering all those pieces. When you look at, you know, job details, make sure that you’re covering what’s relevant in your own resume to make sure that it’s accurate. So I think that’s important.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you, that sounds really quite an important tip this, here’s something slightly nuanced. So last year, a lot of the consultancies, a lot of companies lay people off, and the market was flooded with candidates. How does someone who’s trying to break in make themselves rise above everybody else? That’s one, four. Is that even possible? Just just with the sheer number of people coming into the ecosystem? Is that even possible? So I understand what you say about predicting someone in LinkedIn, from a company that you’re interested in. But when you are fighting against such high competition, so if I’m somebody new coming to the system, there’s all these people who were laid off last year who have worked in the Big Four consulting companies that’s going to be hoovered up first, when the job market open stops. What should I do? There’s, it just sometimes can feel quite demoralizing. For some Well,
Justin
it definitely can I’ve, I’ve read resumes and reviewed resumes that are impressive, and these people have not been able to get get a Salesforce job. It’s you know, it’s, it’s unfortunate, it really is, and there’s no guarantee in the door, right? There’s no way that you can say, all right, because you you know, did you know 1520 trailheads, like you’re, you’re in, you’re gonna be in Salesforce. And, you know, it’s an it’s an unfortunate reality it is. And there’s the only way of really rising above that competition is getting experience and getting experience is the hardest thing and how you get experience is sometimes you have to take that job that doesn’t have everything, it doesn’t check all the boxes. And I’ve heard in my own admin groups, some people are unwilling to do that. You know, some people don’t want to be able to do that. I understood that that’s what I had to do to break into the industry. And I was willing to accept that. And it’s, you know, it’s it’s a it’s a decision right because everybody wants that admin, you know, salary, but you have to, you know, climb those stairs or climb, climb the ladder, so to speak to get there and there’s no guarantee there is there is no guarantee i’ve i’ve had people in my group who have submitted 200 you know, plus resumes and eventually they have you know, gotten jobs but it’s hard. I mean, there’s there’s no way around it. It’s it’s a tough market.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you for that candid. Yeah, candid response. So let’s just focus on the first job that you got in the ecosystem. How did you find it and what did you What did you have any expectations that were met or met like, I didn’t realize that to do this?
Justin
Yeah, so um, do you mean when I first got into Salesforce like what my kind of acts affectations work. Yeah. So I was I’ll admit, I was pretty naive, I thought if I was making, you know, field change, I was good, you know, system, Salesforce system admin, there was so much I didn’t know, I went to the Salesforce higher ed summit and realize there were so many technologies there, there were so many things I was unaware of. So one thing I actually did, because I realized, after that conference, I knew nothing is I contacted, I got a lot of business cards from different universities. And I contacted everyone who had a presentation, almost everyone had a presentation that I attended, you know, at the higher ed summit, and I was able to bring that back to the university that I worked for. And you know, I didn’t take credit for it, it was, you know, people who, you know, really got great Intel from, so I was able to learn through through that way. And one thing that I learned, you know, in my, in my career, you know, in the Salesforce ecosystem is that I was doing Salesforce work, but I was also doing, you know, other work on top of that, you know, I was managing the campaign’s I was making sure that people got, you know, email communication. So, you have to be, you know, to some level of understanding that your, when you first break into Salesforce, you know, ecosystem, it’s not just going to be 100% in Salesforce, or at least it wasn’t for me. And I was okay with that. But it’s definitely challenging, you know, being able to, you know, draw a line in the sand and say, Here are my roles, here’s what I’m willing to go outside and do. Because I think at a university in smaller companies, you often have to, you know, perform duties and responsibilities that are outside that, you know, that responsibility. So, that’s, that’s what I learned is that, whenever you accept a job, you’re always going to do more that’s outside those those job descriptions. And I think that I think people need to be able to accept that in order to break into the ecosystem, because it’s a challenging, it’s a challenging market. It really, really is. That, does that answer your question?
Pei Mun Lim
He does. Thank you very much. I’d like to ask now about how you took the set there, to your current role.
Justin
Sure. So I was not certified at, at the university. I was doing sales ops, and I was doing 20% Salesforce work. And they, you know, my company realized, you know, the work I was doing was pretty significant. The projects were increasing, everything was kind of just, when, when you work for I worked for the company that I worked for now, at the time, I was hired just 20 people, now it’s grown to 90 people. So So yeah, it’s it’s grown tremendously with that growth. You know, there has to be more defined, you know, clarification, you know, on what you do. So, how I grew was taking on projects, taking on responsibility. And, you know, drawing a line in the sand, when I felt comfortable and doing that and say, we need to work on these projects, we need to, you know, I need to take off the sales ops hat for the time being, and really make these priorities. So. And I will say, it’s still a challenge. People say, Oh, can you can you do this? Can you do that? So I still go back to sales ops, and I still, you know, do Salesforce ba. So my roles still are a little bit muddy, to be honest with you, but I’ve accepted it. Um, I think that that’s, I hear that all the time, though. In the Salesforce ecosystem, you’re often kind of doing multiple things that at any given time, multitasking is absolutely critical. I’ve accepted it, I’ve embraced it. It’s allowed me to be who I am today. And, you know, I’m, I would say it’s made me a stronger, you know, Salesforce ba.
Pei Mun Lim
So when you say Ba, tell me what exactly do you mean by sign up? Your term?
Justin
Yeah, no, it’s a good question. Because everybody has different terms. I was I was on what’s that new app? What is it called? sound? What is it? It’s that new app that everybody’s on right now. clubhouse. I was on clubhouse and somebody was talking about product owners. And everybody had a different definition of product owners, which I thought was was funny and I was like, Based off your definition, I am a product owner. But a Salesforce Ba, my role is to, you know, gather requirements to make sure that everybody understands, you know, if we make a decision like this here is what will happen, positive or negative, my role is to gather requirements. And this isn’t, in my opinion, this is a typical for Salesforce ba. But my my role also is bringing forth that solution to say, here are the requirements, here are the steps to do that. Here’s all the parties involved for sign off and execution. And then here, you know, here’s what we need to do to ensure that this project is met, you know, successfully. And mapping is so so critical. mapping is probably some something at University of Maryland, I did not do was mapping in my role. Now I am constantly mapping, I’m constantly over communicating, if there’s one small change that needs to be made, I can guarantee you, there’s five emails behind it, that are going over why we’re doing this, and documentation. Oh, my God is critical. And I can tell you that my weakness is organization. But I would say being a Salesforce Ba, it’s critical, it’s paramount. Like you need to be able to document everything. That’s why I have folders upon folders upon folders of documentation. So that’s my role as a Salesforce Ba, I know I rambled. That’s like, that’s
Pei Mun Lim
No, that’s okay. So I’m just taking a couple of notes, because I want to come back to them and ask your questions. So going back to what you were saying, what triggers the change that is required, you talk about your role being together requirements? what triggers that? Is it an internal, you think, oh, there’s this process that needs to be better? Or is a user driven?
Justin
That’s a really good question. It’s a little bit of both, um, it’s, it’s user driven. And then if I think, you know, that something needs to change, you know, I will alert, you know, leadership and say, you know, I really think this needs to be change. And I always have to, you know, bring in a meeting, and document the steps of why, you know, I do a pros and cons with everything I do. You know, here’s, here’s what we do. Today, here’s the pros and cons of it, here’s what we can do tomorrow. And here’s the pros and cons of it, I try to keep it really simple. I think that’s really important. Keep things simple, because if you go too complex, you lose everybody, we lose everybody, I’m just the other day, I was going over, you know, a recommendation to create, like a new record type in our work. And I realized that sometimes I just, you know, don’t explain things all the time. And I was like, I need to write out this definition. So people understand what a record type is. So I actually did that. So over explaining things is, is really important. And, yeah, I would say that the changes, I can make internal changes, if there’s like a validation rule or something, but a real, real significant change. Loop, everybody in have a big giant meeting, and then over document, everything relates to that meeting is kind of my steps. And then make sure at the end, it’s similar to sales, you know, make sure at the end, you capture those next steps, you get those next steps before that call ends. And you make sure that everybody understands what their responsibilities are. And that’s kind of how I, you know, execute changes, if you will.
Pei Mun Lim
So earlier on, you said the word mapping, and I think you use it in a way that I’m not used to using it in your previous role. You didn’t focus on mapping your current role, you just do mapping all the time. But my understanding from the way that you’ve explained it is communication, or or is it not bad? What do you mean when you say mapping?
Justin
So, so you map you map communication, but you also map processes. So, for example, if you’re making a record type change, I map out exactly what we are making changes to. So when a record type is created, this is the fields that are going to go in there. This is the reporting that’s going to be affected. These are the users that we need to engage with. And that’s what I mean by mapping is having a total encompassing solution,
Pei Mun Lim
if you will, right. So you’re you’re putting details into it. What are the details needs to be communicated? What’s the details of the change of this record type? What’s the exact things are the processes that’s going to change as a result of this thing that you’re trying to do
Justin
Exactly.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay. All right. The other thread that I got from your other answer was around documentation, you say, the organization is your weak point, but organized? documentation isn’t important. How do you document and how do you store that documentation? in how do you socialize documents? You have?
Justin
Really good question. So for my company, we have a Brd form. So business requirements document. So everyone, it’s their responsibility to read that business requirements document. And it’s everyone’s responsibility, who’s part of that meeting to sign off on that document, if there’s any change that needs to be made, after we’ve already gone through the business requirements document, which does happen eight times out of 10, a change management request form is created. And that a new Brd version, business requirements document form is created to implement that change process. And, you know, I hate documentation more than anybody, but it’s really important. It really is, it saves your own, you know, self when, you know, you’re going through, you know, and communicating with people who have technical knowledge, and also people who don’t have technical knowledge. It, it saved me in more ways than one, you go back to the business requirements document, you’re like, Well, this was said here, this is out of scope. And I’m sure you’ve dealt with that as a consultant. Well, we can do this, but it’s out of scope. We can work on this, but just understand this was it wasn’t articulated. So that’s that’s how we go through that process.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, no, thank you for that. It sounds as though that the way that you are executing changes quite ad hoc, would that be right? Or do you say, right, we’re going to look at putting releases or financial changes in every so often I know, right? The next time we’re gonna do this, we’re going to maybe record change, and maybe something else do you? Would you bundle them? Or would they be different pieces of Brd that you’d have to store?
Justin
Well, we have a, like, I have a significant amount of projects and my prep. So right now, I’m focused on three priority projects. And, you know, I wouldn’t say they’re ad hoc, I would say that the changes are pretty strategic, and like, what’s our priorities first, what isn’t a priority. And we don’t want to submit, like, the last thing I want to do is have a change management request form. But what does happen is people, once you build the solution, I think the the light bulbs start going off for other people. And well, we can do this, well, we can do that. And when you work for a company that, you know, is comprised of 80 people, it’s not a 300, you know, person company, the advantages, you have someone you know, like me, who can make those changes quickly. there’s pros to that. And there’s also cons of that, where you can make changes quickly. If you make changes quickly, you just need to make sure that everybody’s on board with that, you know, that request. And that can be difficult, because everybody just wants things done. You know, we live in a time where people just want things done now. But it’s our job as Salesforce ba to be like, well, we can do this now. But you need to understand that, you know, what’s behind this change? What will happen if we do this change. So I very well documented if this change happens, these are the ramifications. These, you know, are the actual next steps I need from you. And this is what will happen once we’ve made those changes. So I wouldn’t say it’s ad hoc, but they come in fast the requests they do.
Pei Mun Lim
So right now Your, your team of ones to manage this.
Justin
Yeah. There’s one other person getting hired, actually today.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, okay, that will make your life a bit easier and managed. In my world, what you’re doing, you’re the product owner, your ba and Salesforce admin. You’re also the key stakeholder as well as the champions. So that’s like five jobs. One, and you’ve got competing priorities. It sounds like so not only do you have to manage the stakeholders, say Hang on three of you about three different competing changes by now sit down and think about all of it and impact of all of it and then synthesize a proposal or recommendation. But then once you have put forth your argument, and you have got a response or decision, then you’ve got to action it as well. And that sounds about right.
Justin
Yeah. Five jobs in one. Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty accurate.
Pei Mun Lim
What do you what do you find the most enjoyable part about what you currently do?
Justin
I love completing projects. It’s like, it’s euphoric. It really is. Um, you know, sometimes I look back at a project, I’m like, That was tough. That was tough. But I mean, I consider myself, you know, I’m not, not trying to boast or anything, but I consider myself pretty tough. But Salesforce has made me tougher. And these projects, sometimes they can, they can beat you down, thank you. But it’s our job to rise above that. It’s our job to over communicate, it’s our job to, you know, be professional and be courteous. And for our non technical, you know, users be able to articulate what they can. And I try to pretend that my mom’s in the room, and I’m talking to my mom about Salesforce. I try to envision that, because I am not a consultant, but I often sometimes feel like a consultant at my role. Where I’m saying, well, that’s not really how it works. Like, I’m sure you’ve heard, well, can you just put a custom object into Salesforce? And you’re like, Well, yeah, you can always put a custom object in the Salesforce, but is that gonna help you? Um, so, um, you know, that’s, that’s something that’s enjoyable, is being able to, you know, talk to non technical users get their buy in, get their excitement on it, and also complete a project, you know, completing projects, like crossing the finish line, it’s gratifying. You got here, you know, checks in the mail, not for me, but, you know, this is what this is what I get paid for, it’s what it’s what my job entails, it’s complete these projects successfully. And, you know, we have, you know, my company, we have meetings that wrap up, you know, projects. And it was great when we had a wrap up call regarding a renewals project. Because I’m in, you know, health care insurance. And everyone, you know, was like, I think everything went great. And I will be honest, that doesn’t always happen. But it is a gratifying feeling when that does happen. Because you know, what you need to do next time to make sure that the same things happen again, what, you know, I think, you do this, as well, as you look at what’s been a good project for what’s been a bad project. And if somebody tells you that they’ve had all perfect projects, they’re lying. They’re just so I am proud of, you know, those, those struggles that have turned out to be great wins.
Pei Mun Lim
Fantastic. I can imagine. When you look back at all the projects that you’ve done, so follow my content, you know, I talk about the good projects and the character building ones. Yeah. If you look at those that were the character building ones, what were the things that you felt you? What were the kind of lessons you took away from it to make sure that you didn’t have to repeat those experiences again?
Justin
I think over communicating, even when I think Never assume, like literally never assume. And I mean, in everything, like, never assume people understand what you’re saying. I think that’s one thing I’ve learned is I’m like, Oh, well, you know, everybody’s smart in this room, everybody understands everything I’m saying. But sometimes people just want to get on to the next meeting, they want to move on. And I totally get that I can be impatient myself. Because I obviously I want to get the project, you know, crossed off but also, you want to do it the right way. And I think what’s difficult in any type of environment is you have a team, you have different experiences, and everybody has different expectations. And that’s been my learning lesson is, you know, how could I have communicated better? How could I have looped this person in differently because, you know, we work in a crazy and environment right now we’re, you know, we’re just getting around the bend, in my opinion with COVID. Everybody’s working from home. And I feel like there’s a tremendous amount of stress. And I, I think that, with that being said, you know, people have their own, you know, agendas, they have their own, you know, things, you know, interpersonally that are going on. So I try to take that into consideration when we have projects. And, you know, I’ve heard in calls before, where you know, somebody’s talking to their dog, and they’re not, they’re not muted. So you have to take those things, you know, you have to listen to those bells that go off and be like, Well, did you hear this? And just over communicate, I think that’s really important. And it’s still something I struggle with is, you know, some people, you know, be like, why is he asking these questions? Well, it’s my job to ask those questions, we have to make sure that we get to that end goal. So, yeah, does that make sense? Does it does?
Pei Mun Lim
I was just wondering, have you ever had to work with a partner? To get things done? Did you ever need a piece of code? Or tell me about do you have a specific partner, you go to all the time? Or?
Justin
No, I don’t, um, we did have a partner, we we used for Cognos. And I don’t want to name that partner, it did not go too well, to be honest with you. They were not very accommodating. But I also think that our organization has high expectations. And, you know, our meeting sometimes, you know, carried on for, you know, longer than expected. And I think that becomes a challenge in the consultant world, they have, you know, an hour of time, you know, everything is very regimented. When you you know, work for a company like mine, we, we ask questions, we, you know, sometimes continue on longer than expected. We had, you know, a business requirements meeting, and not everybody was in that business requirements meeting. So I wouldn’t say it was actually the consultants fault. I would say that a learning lesson is if, you know, not everyone in that meeting, can come to those meetings don’t have the meeting seriously don’t don’t have the meeting. And I don’t think that was the consultants fault. I think that was a learning lesson from us. Like, there was one person in that group where they were trusted to, you know, you know, be the decision maker, and they clearly weren’t understanding the, you know, technology and the decision making behind it. And we use that consultant. But besides that, we haven’t really used a consultant and aside from Cognos.
Pei Mun Lim
So if you had to in the future, what would you change?
Justin
Oh, good question. Um, I think it’s great when you have, you know, 1012 people in a meeting, but I also think there’s, there’s a negative aspect to that, too many cooks in the kitchen, I would say, a more refined list of key stakeholders. And, um, one thing that I like that consultants do, I’ve realized is record meetings. I think that’s a good practice, so that you can play back, you know, what’s being said, you can, you know, dictate notes and kind of review the tape. You know, that’s one thing I would do differently is have, I think, well, people in a requirements gathering meeting is just bad enough. Yeah, bound to be a problem. But that’s what I would do differently. And I also, you know, it’s hard to, you know, be able to say to people, you know, you need to be in this meeting, or we just shouldn’t have it, that’s a difficult conversation to have. But I think sometimes those those need to be, you know, sad. Like, if, if we’re meeting with this consultant, we’re getting billed by this consultant. And you need to be in this meaning it’s, you know, people just think about, you know, their, you know, the projects, you know, cost 30 grand, for example, but if you don’t go to those meetings, it’s gonna cost more than 30 grand, it quickly builds up. I mean, I talked to consultants every day, they’re like, well, we didn’t get all the requirements. So that 30k project turned into a 50k project. And I think about that all the time. You know, I don’t think people fully understand that but less people over communicating and sometimes plan Back to tape, you know, seeing you know, exactly, you know what happened in that call and you know what you can do to kind of just be the referee and over communicate, you know, actionable next steps.
Pei Mun Lim
It is okay, if I share some my thoughts on this particular topic. If I was doing a project, and I had the freedom and flexibility to have conversations with the customer, before we sign on any statement of works, so if my focus is on helping this customer get to a very successful endpoints, so you’re not thinking about, okay, I’m, I’m a consulting partner, I should find a way to sell as much as I can. That’s not what all partners shoot, but at the back of their mind, you know, this is a business. But if I want to just focus on success, and I looked at the different companies, different clients that I’m going into, what I do is I would look at the political landscape, as well as the influence that the key, my peer showed be the IT project manager, or the self evaluate, or somebody like yourself, for example, that I would be interfacing with, and I look at the knowledge, the and the influence that you have in your domain. And depending on how much influence you have internally, is how I would say, for yourself, so you are quite knowledgeable about the system, you’ve been there for a while you’ve put in law changes, you do the business case for all the things that you want, and you do the selling of that business case. And then once the proposals except that you build it out, so you have influence, you have competence, you have influence, what I would advise is that in order to if you have a piece of work that require consultants to do, like, develop or something, so you’d have to take on a big part of the consulting role, which is to gather at least part of the requirements, at least the process mapping. And then when you see the consultants when they come to your site, is you reduce the number of people because you’ve already spoken to, let’s say, the 12. And you think that okay, for for you, I understand what you want, I will represent you. And then there’ll be six plus yourself, seven, which is a little bit more manageable. And the four that you pick might be those that are a little bit more easygoing, maybe those that that would be happy for you to represent them. And maybe Okay, with whatever outcome that comes up in that way, you narrow it down a little bit.
Justin
I completely agree. We did a business requirements document, but it’s slowly turned into, well, can we get a rainbow, you know, over the unicorn, and with 12 people, and there’s way too many cooks in the kitchen. So I do agree with you on tap for people going out of the process. You know, making sure it’s mapped out before you to get some of the consultants hand is is critical. I mean, it’s it’s critical. So I completely agree with that.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, no, that’s quite interesting to your folks. It sounds like your company, you being the only one that you’ve got to referee everybody in. Okay, right. Um, towards the end of the podcast, what I like to do is I like to ask a little bit more, what I call the EU user manual for the young, basically. And I like this idea, because then it allows people to understand you a little bit more for me to understand you a bit more and to understand how you work. Okay. Right. What are some raw, unfiltered truth about yourself, that maybe other people don’t know,
Justin
unfiltered truths about myself? I’m impatient. You know, I am. I’m a relentless individual. I don’t stop until I get, you know, the solution or, you know, it’s crossed off my list. I would say I’m relentless and determined, unfiltered truth about myself. The third one is the unfiltered truth. I’m a triplet. Yeah, and not many people. People know about that. And I think I think that that gives me perspective when I’m you know, trying to, you know, talk to different people, I’ve two sisters, you know, and I feel like that’s given me good interpersonal experiences, you know, not always, you know, thinking that I understand people, and I’m asking those questions. And, you know, I always talk to people, you know, like, you know, when we spoke on LinkedIn, you know, I think that the unfiltered Truth is, I don’t know everything in Salesforce, I don’t pretend to. And I think that, that’s what allows me to be good at what I do is always just asking questions. I don’t care if you’re a 16 times certified Salesforce expert, you still need to ask questions. And that’s something that I will always do, regardless of, if I have one certification or 18. is always just ask those questions and, you know, admit in call, sometimes you don’t know you don’t have the answer. And I, I don’t always have the answer. And I and I think we as Salesforce professionals seem to be okay with saying that we don’t have the answer. But we’ll find out, we share well. And I would say that those are my unfiltered truths.
Pei Mun Lim
I like that like that. Thank you. And what are you great.
Justin
Oh, I’m great at, you know, communicating to people, this is what we need, you know, from a non technical standpoint, to a technical standpoint, I’m good at boiling it down. And I think that in Salesforce, you can have conversations with people, you’re like, well, what did you just say? And being able to translate it to non technical people, like I said, I try to pretend like my mom’s in the room, like talking to my mom about Salesforce. You know, she thinks I work for Salesforce, I don’t work for Salesforce as many times as I’ve spoken to her. But, you know, it’s it’s important to be able to talk to non technical users and, and be able to make sure that they’re comfortable with, you know, what you’re saying. So I’m good, I’m good with that. I would say that, you know, I’m good with, you know, making sure that our org is secure. I would say I’m really good with security and process builder and workflows. I’m not good at flows, I’m still learning on flows. That’s, that’s a complicated one for me. But I would say that I’m really good at solution building, I’m really good at you know, being an admin being a PA getting those user requirements, and making sure that everybody’s on board. Like, you know, I think the most, I think what’s not, you know, seen on a job description is communication skills critical. But communication skills are absolutely critical. I’d say that’s definitely a strength of mine.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, definitely. Yeah, I think I think we look at the transcript and how many times and say the word communication, I think that would be one of the biggest key words that pop out. I totally agree. 100% not only to our word, but also absorbing what people are saying. So you talk about asking the right questions. It also sounds like you do very good listening as well. And to make sure that everyone’s because what are some of the quirks that you might have?
Justin
works? Um, I joke a lot. And, you know, I think that it’s okay to joke, it really is, but you also need to be like, you know, sensitive to, you know, other people and make sure that you’re not offending anyone. And I think in in today’s society, you know, you want to make sure you have the right jokes, obviously. But, um, you know, in, in my world, it’s stressful it is. And sometimes breaking through that stress as a joke, breaking through that stress is changing your wallpaper on, you know, when you’re on a zoom call, like, I remember, there was a colleague and I, we had a, we were working on a project, we were stressed out as could be, we had those Bernie Sanders memes. Yeah, you have to be able to, you know, just have fun when you’re working through the stress. And, you know, I’m saying this advice now, and I can tell you that I don’t always practice this, because the stress sometimes does get, you know, pretty. No gets up there. So, those are my quirks is, you know, I joke around a lot. You know, I have fun. Um, and I would say in particular, you know, I, there there are things in my Salesforce org where people were like, Can you change this? And I, I don’t want to, but if people, you know, are talking to me, and there’s more people involved, you know, I’m okay with that. I would say, as a Salesforce product owner, you know, you want to protect your org, you don’t just want to make these these changes. So I would say, those are my corks. But I mean, I’m not the most quirky guy, but I definitely joke around sometimes.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, okay. Oh, one last question. Before we wrap up, what are the values that you hold highest regard?
Justin
honesty is the most important, you know, attribute, in my opinion, I would rather somebody mess up 10 times and say they messed up 10 times, then lie about, you know what happened, because we can fix, we can fix what happened typically, but we can’t fix somebody who’s lying. That’s my opinion, integrity. You know, if you say you’re going to do something, make sure you do it. Make sure you know that you’re holding yourself accountable and others accountable. And honesty, integrity, and just dedication be dedicated to the work that you do. You know, if you say that this is your deadline, and you don’t meet it, that’s okay. But just just, you know, articulate, you know, what, your next step? Yeah, I would say that that’s really important. Not only in the Salesforce ecosystem, but just in life, you know. And, I mean, I would rather have somebody making 10 mistakes than somebody not being honest about, you know, what’s happening. Because I think you can train somebody to not make those mistakes, but you can’t train somebody to not lie, you know. And we see things in Salesforce every day, what people are doing, you know, we know how to track things. You know, we know how to track, you know, when a user logs in, so if somebody says, I didn’t get this on, you know, 325 we know if that users logged in, you know, sometimes I don’t think people know that. Um, so it, there’s, there’s a fine line between, you know, being able to, you know, call people out, and then just being able to, you know, just take it in and, you know, maybe use it as a learning experience for the for the user.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, thank you so much, Justin, this has been really, really enjoyable. I particularly love hearing about your journey from where you were in the recruitment world, into the Salesforce ecosystem. I love the tips that you’ve provided. The challenges and the fun bit about your current role is how you manage the users and how you value integrity, honesty, a communication.
Justin
Thank you very much Pei, for for speaking with me. I know we’ve we’ve spoken, you know, via LinkedIn, but it’s great to, you know, meet you virtually. So I appreciate your time.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you. And thank you for making the time so early in your morning for me, I’ve been trying to find a suitable time so I appreciate that very much. Thank you. All right.
All right. Have a good day. You too. Bye.