#Podcast with Caroline Häming (it’s pronounced like Ernest Hemingway, without the ‘way’) is now out!
I really had so much fun with her, and she isn’t like the run of the mill #SalesforceArchitect.
She’s a Business Solutions Architect, and is a nerdy Business Analyst at heart (just like me! That’s why we click so well). If you stay until the end, you’ll find out about her quirky hobbies too!
Please drop in and have a listen, the link is 👇🏻
Enjoy!
Transcript
Pei Mun Lim
Hi, Carol, welcome to my podcast OnThePeiroll. How are you today?
Carol
Hi, Pei, thank you for having me. I’m great. How are you? Excited to be here?
Pei Mun Lim
Oh, me too. Me too. We had a recording before. And I made mistake of the technical issues that I’m so so glad for another opportunity to talk to you again. So I really appreciate that. Okay, you have a very interesting journey, which I think a lot of my listeners would love to hear about. And also Me too, because I’m a technical nerd at heart. How about you tell us your story in your journey?
Carol
Well, basically, I was never a technical nerd at heart. To me, it’s like having ended up in a technology field. If you were speaking to, I don’t know, 18 year old me, she would tell you never would this happen. So when I started out, like we spoke about this a little bit before, I always wanted to be a doctor, right? So I was very interested in the medical field. And I loved working with people. Two things being in the medical field didn’t really become me. So I took it really hard and couldn’t really deal with all of these personal tragedies you see sometimes. And also, I wasn’t really the best student in high school. So I have to admit, like the last couple of years, they were really tough on me. I wanted to get out there and start working. So yeah, no, but it’s funny, because that’s how I ended up in technology after.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, how did that talk to us about that transition from medical to technology? That’s like,
Carol
yeah, I mean, I just wanted to like I went to school in Germany, I lived in grew up in Germany. So I wanted to get out of the country, right. So I was very lucky to be living or growing up in a time where that was easily possible, right, with the EU and everything. And my sister, having gone ahead to Ireland, which started to emerge as a huge technical hub in Europe. And she said, Okay, why don’t you just come over here for a while, you know, you get to improve your English, you get to have a look at what it’s like to live abroad. And I’m like, Okay, I’m there. So I graduated, my graduation ceremony was on a Saturday, Sunday morning, 10am. I was on that flight to Dublin.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay, okay.
Carol
And then, as it goes, I was introduced to a recruiter, and my first job was in working for a tech hotline, really, so I was speaking to people setting up their printers at home. And there was little me not knowing really anything about computers or anything. So it was, it was, it was a great time, it was crazy, really, because, you know, being on the phone all day and talking to people about my kids gave me a printer for Christmas, but I don’t really know how my computer works. And I was like, Okay. And to be honest, I lasted the whole of six months. proud of me, I never wanted to do anything with telephones or computers ever again. So it’s like, if I have to see another phone, and I have to answer the phone one more time, I will lose it. But you know, as it is, I started interviewing for a couple of jobs. And I always wanted to work in sales. Like I was working a temporary job at Oracle, and my manager there, she was awesome. And let’s talk about that a little bit later about how people mentor you and how they can put you on a path because you know, these early career experiences, they’re very important. So she said, Okay, you know what, you’re doing really great. Why don’t you try working in sales? I can’t work in sales. She’s like, yeah, you should really give this a try. So I went home and I thought about it a little and started applying for SAS jobs. And I ended up interviewing for Salesforce. Oh, that was it. That was hilarious because I went in there and met the most amazing people Salesforce at the time was still a small little startup not like it is today. You know, huge billion dollar company was very small. And I met these amazing people and the first question the VP asked me was like so yeah, you know, what’s your MS? And I said, I’m afraid not yet but you know what I’m demand computing is I’m not so sure either. Party. I must have done something right because they offered me the job and I started working at SAS was in business development at first And the company was growing. And it’s crazy. And to be honest, when you talk to people today, it still feels like this. Sometimes, you know, it’s still this little small startup spirit within this huge corporation. Yeah, and I worked my way into sales. And that’s when I figured out how interesting it is and also how many different businesses you get to talk to right, because Salesforce is something for every industry. And that really means you get to look behind the scenes of a lot of different companies, different sizes, different industries. That’s what made it really interesting. And after a while, I decided, Okay, I want to see this from the client side, like you sell stuff, and then you’re out. So you will never really know, has what I’ve told them and has what I’ve sold them that the trick, or is it just, you know, I’ve sold them? And then it’s the technical people’s problem. But yeah, so I changed into consulting, and started working with people on their business processes. So really seeing, okay, now I need to look at the processes. And that’s what I want to achieve. That’s a strategy I want for my business. And how can technology help me with that, and I’ve stopped with Salesforce, because to be honest, I love it. I love how easily adaptable it is to everything, and how it fits nearly every business case, and how much it has grown. And I love that about it. So you see something different every day. And right when you’re in consulting, there comes a time when you’re like, Okay, I have to talk to technical people, because I have great ideas for all the business automation. So now let’s get to building it. Yep. So that’s when I started getting into the technical things. So I needed to understand how things are implemented, how I can transport that to a team of technical people, because even though we’d like to think we’re there, we’re not there yet, there’s still a gap between technology and business. And I found in my career, that there’s few people who can really bridge that gap to the extent that it makes sense, and you don’t come on to small little surprises, you know, like digging a tunnel from both ends.
Pei Mun Lim
I get you again. Yeah,
Carol
yep. And that’s how I ended up where I am today. So I’m now an architect, I would call myself my business architect and really a technical architect. Because what I do is bringing together like the business strategy and the whole vision, and breaking it down into what Salesforce or what we can achieve with Salesforce technology. So that’s why I’m
Pei Mun Lim
today. What do you think, is a key quality that a person needs to be able to do what you do? So the marrying of the business and the technical side of things? Would that person have to do all the thirds, or start from the functional side or start start from the inclined side, or start from the what makes a very good person that can hold both sort of skill set in a very coherent way. Because we know a lot of people who are very technical, and for them to transition into the business mindset is quite tough. So I just be interested to hear your thoughts from.
Carol
So when you come from a technical background, I think what’s really important is that you get close to the business, because and I find in some instances that the setup of the projects prevents that. So what I like to do when I start a new project, and I’m new requirements is I like to get everyone around the table, and make sure I really explain what the problem is that we are trying to solve. Because I can go out there and I can tell the developer to implement a payment process. But if I do not explain to them what the use of it is, or why the client needs it, or is looking for it, or explain it to them in a way that they’ve maybe even encountered it in day to day life themselves, it’s hard to make that connect. So for the technical side, get into the to get into that position where you can bridge the gap, it’s really important to be able to make in your mind that transition from what you technically build into the everyday use case, really. And you can only do that, when you manage to get into the action, like get in early, I always say. So. I think the other way around it is maybe a little bit easier. Because if you already understand what you’re trying to achieve, like the bigger picture, it’s easier to get down, you know, under the hood and try to figure out the tech technicalities or the technical things there. Although I mean, I know people who have done this become really good developers, but I always feel that that person is very, very rare. You know that person Back to the all round thing because you have a passion for something. And sometimes it’s the more technical bits in terms, it’s the business bits, my passion, definitely on the business side, which doesn’t mean I don’t understand the technical side. And yeah, if you put a gun to my head, like I managed, you know, but it’s not so. And I always say, like, there’s people out there who are so much better at it than I am. And I appreciate that they can do it. But it would not be my first choice of career, don’t develop
Pei Mun Lim
my passion. But I think your writers of people who can do both is very, very bad. And they are very key in the larger projects, because they can see the big picture from all sides. If you have two people, one with business and one with technical, it’s just marrying them, it’s just a little bit harder, I think, because you’re seeing things from two different sides. So I do I do get your point. So what’s really interesting that I find about your career path is that you have decided to move into a more technical, more business solution architect, if that’s the phrase that I use. In a more male dominated, it has always been male dominated is becoming less so but it still feels that way. When you walk into a project room who have technical people that normally are men. How have you found that in your career journey as a female within a male dominated field?
Carol
I was, well, I’ve had both sides right in the beginning, like I was very, very lucky. When my sales career started, I had this amazing mentor. And really, we were like this tag team. And he was fantastic, right? So he really showed me the ropes, he’d always have my back, that was awesome. And I’ve learned so so much from him always be grateful, right. But then, as you move on, like, you go to university, there’s people there, you know, you’re in an IT course, there’s 10, guys, two girls, and it’s like, you’re in the wrong course, you know, childcare is next door, kind of these kind of jokes. And also, maybe people speaking to you, and then verifying with a male colleague, or wanting to speak to the, to the company that’s behind the product, because you know, they will know better than you even though you have 1520 years of experience. So. And you know, it’s interesting, it’s not even a generational thing, you would always think that maybe, you know, the older generation where it wasn’t that common for women to work would be the ones who a bit more standoffish, but that’s not even true. Like they’re more excited about the diversity about, you know, women coming in, they’ll support they feel more like the uncle or Big Brother, you know, they’d have to protect and take you along, and they look after you smarter, younger generation, you know, they feel like, what are you even doing here? That’s always fit.
Carol
But then again, I always say, you know, what, once when in person meetings will be happening again, you will see the reason why I never really had much of these problems. It’s because I’m a woman, I’m six foot, one 187. So when I want me to room, I’m mostly the tallest, so people would be intimidated by maybe that’s, that’s helped me a lot. Also, I’m not very quiet. That’s just not in my nature. So I will be very outspoken. And if something like this goes on, I will say something. Because I don’t accept it just because of my gender, or I don’t know, I’m not better or worse at things then somebody else You know, so.
Pei Mun Lim
Oh, is that why you? You’re so passionate about mentoring women in tech? Yeah. Tell me a bit more about that.
Carol
So I really, I’ve also seen this, you know, this unequal balance of women in the room. And you know why I started with this is because I wanted to have more of an exchange with women in my field. I didn’t always want to be the only one because we have inset certain ways, different challenges, right? Where as a woman, you would always hit the glass ceiling sometimes. And I know people say, Oh, no, that’s a myth. It doesn’t happen yet. It does, you know, and I wanted to give women a space where we could sit down and talk about what affects us at work when people are talking over us when they’re not taking us seriously. How would somebody deal with it who doesn’t have the confidence to go out there and speak out for themselves so can I be a How can I be an ally and that’s how I started also mentoring. I wanted to give younger Women a chance to find their own voice with in this. And I know the famous Megan Markel tweet, you know, women have a voice, you know, you just need to be heard. I wholeheartedly agree with that. We do have a voice, it’s just, you know, make yourself heard is maybe the better phrase in this in this thing. So that’s what I do. I talk to them, I tell them, what they, how they approach things are valid, or how they can maybe better position themselves. in this field, we exchange ideas about how we can approach certain topics for projects, you know, how to staff my projects, for better diversity? How do I I don’t know, bring other things that you maybe bring to the table as a woman that I’m not necessarily there in a male dominated environment, like the empathy, you know, showing you weaknesses, standing up for your mistakes, that kind of thing? How to make this? I don’t know, how do you say that? How to make this acceptable? moment?
Pei Mun Lim
Talk me through what does mentoring? Is it formal? Do you meet weekly at a cadence? Or is it more ad hoc? How does it? How does it work?
Carol
So it’s more talk. So when I’m mentoring, I try to figure out what these ladies really want to achieve. You know, some of them, they come from a background of unemployment, some of them they come from wanting to change careers. So really sit down and we see where where exactly is it that they want to go? And then also figuring out, is it more the technical side they interested in? Is it more the business side? Do they know is it a mix of both, you know, figuring out a path, and then I would just sit down with them and tailor the journey. So I start having them on the trail mixes, I introduce them to my network, I tell them which events to attend, and where to best, you know, find job opportunities, and we keep in touch. So if I ever hear somebody looking for a job, you know, I know somebody we can place and the only thing that I asked them is that they pass it on. Because you know, if you are extended a helping hand, and it’s not even a helping hand, it’s just more you know, somebody to walk beside on your journey. You give somebody else the opportunity to work beside you. So pass it on is the only thing that I asked anyone who asked my help?
Pei Mun Lim
No, that’s the that’s that’s the only way to amplify the effect. Yeah. Is to to have them they’ve gone through the journey. They know what it feels like to then help others. I know in your roles you’ve been both in the consulting field in with in customers. Tell me what you prefer? Do you have a preference, they’re both quite different beasts, in the way you approach things and the way that you work with people. I just like to hear what you think, what what you prefer, consulting.
Carol
I would like my voice be focused on it’s way less red tape. consulting is awesome in a way that you get to meet so many different clients in so many different fields. Like I’ve worked from financial services to nonprofits, for manufacturing, really, with a lot of different clients, you meet so many interesting people. And you usually meet people who want to get things done. And you know, if you know me a little, you will also know that I’m somebody who likes to get things done. So not so much into the political side, not so much into the overt, you have to look out for side. This is my problem, I have a solution. Let’s go get after it. So that’s me. And that’s really what consulting to me is all about. Because when you go into the clients, they’ve already understood that they have a challenge that you’d like to solve. And you get really creative about it sometimes. So that’s also my most favorite projects, like where you can come up with unconventional, unconventional solutions for problems. And yeah, the clients are usually very thankful and willing to, you know, make that transition. So that’s why consulting is my jam.
Pei Mun Lim
know, I kind of feel the same as well, because you alluded to earlier, you have the opportunity to go into so many different businesses see how they take to see how they work, and to also have a very, maybe more like an academic more intellectual feel of how did they get to that situation, I can see that’s what caused this particular trend or pattern of being behaviour that then resulted in these issues that then we need now to find a way to address them. And I find it interesting because I can I really like systems thinking and and, and understanding how things are connected in sometimes I can see that the problem that you’re that we’re being asked to solve isn’t the underlying issue. And it just feels like putting a bandaid on. And sometimes I think, Oh, you know, if you can just trace it back, and have a look at how it all started. But that’s not our job. I think our job is to go in. They, they tell us what they think their issues are. And our job is to try and solve that as best as we can. But that’s what I like about consulting, because it’s so diverse in such a huge variety. In all, also, it brings out the best in human beings, I think, especially when I’m talking about teamwork. And I’ve had the amazing good fortune throughout my consulting career, always having really great people around, regardless of what company I’ve been in. And I wouldn’t like to compare it to those, you know, the platoons of people going to war in on those sort of things. But there’s a sense of bonding when you’re in a really stressed environment. And you see each other’s like the worst of themselves, but that is what creates that type font, do you? Do you feel that? Or is it just me.
Carol
And for me, that’s also been an experience of working internationally as well. Because when you go out and you work on a project, other than we’re in a place other than your home country, you meet people from all walks of life, all places of the world, and then you’re stuck there in your hotel room, or apartment, and this is your whole world for however long this project takes. And like you said, it’s there will be last minute changes to requirements, there will be disasters before go live, there’ll be budget cuts, there will be I don’t know, you know, build me a UFO, but you only have half the parts, you know that that’s just what will happen. And he will sit there at night over pizza and you will look your worst. And you will come in and you haven’t slept for days. And you know, these people become like family. And it’s, it’s great, though. And this sometimes also happens with with the customers themselves, because they’re part of the project team. So I have made connections with people that I still cherish today. And I always will. So it’s some of them, I would even call friends. So some of them have become my friends. And you get to know people in at their worst, but also at their best. I mean, come on, it’s the best feeling in the world to have delivered a project to be finished, everybody’s happy. And you can crack open that beer and you eat a pizza and you celebrate. And it’s you know, it’s both exciting and said, because now you know, it’s over. And you have to move on. Meet a new family, you know, for the foreseeable future. Yeah,
Pei Mun Lim
That’s the thing, right? I mean, I was trying to think in what other industries are we thrown together a diverse group of people who, okay, if you’re working in a smaller partner, then you’re likely to know everybody and have worked with everyone. But as you scale up in different size partners, or consulting companies, then you’re not likely to have worked with the same group of people again, and again and again. And I think what sets us apart, is the ability to very quickly connect with people and create a new family around that new project.
Carol
Yeah, yeah. And it will also demand different skills of you every time, because you do not have the time to sit down and talk to these people to figure out what’s their skills, what they’re really good at, where they’re not so good at, you know, you have to learn this while you’re going and then maybe pick up pick up some slack here and there, you know, that wasn’t that way the previous project. And that may be also true for the other people, when it comes to me, you know, that I have a certain style of working everybody does. And now you have to figure out how you can, you know, mash this all together, to have a productive team. And it’s very interesting and it becomes difficult though, I find when when you talk also about having to integrate offshore teams. And I like apply to everyone who has delivered projects successfully during the last year as well because from being together in the same room and at least getting a vibe for the other person. Now we’ve come to this, you know, Yes, on a screen, talking to each other, trying to figure out the mood gauging what’s going on is hardly ever having the time to talk about anything else other than the project, which makes, which makes it difficult. Like when I sit in a room with somebody before the meeting starts after the meeting starts when you go to the kitchen to grab coffee. I would know your kids names and their birthdays and their soccer appointments and whether or not your parents live in the same country as you I would know all these things, you know, but now I don’t anymore. Like I talk to people on a phone call or via zoom or whatever. And to go Yeah, hi. How’s it going? Oh, yeah, good. Yep. pandemic really sucks. Yeah, it does. Yeah, but about the project. You know, these are how the conversations go. Maybe now we’ll throw any vaccinated yet. Can we travel? Can we not whatever. But these were the conversations for the last year or so?
Pei Mun Lim
No, you’re right. I was, um, I was talking to someone who was very used to remote working, because it’s a distributed company. And because that’s the way that they’ve always done things, everyone’s remote. workshops are done online. It’s normal for them. But I think for you and me, who come from a face to face, and everyone walks in, and there’s just so much richness, I think, in proximity, yeah. That to go from that into a face to into a virtual environment is, I find it’s like, it’s like, turning down the volume of, of a movie you’re watching. And there’s so much more context that it feels like I’m missing? how did how have you? How have you dealt with it? How have you coped? How have you tried to find a way to do a bit more than just? Hi, how are you? How, How’s COVID? And have you been, you know, the new norm? Have you? Have you adjusted?
Carol
Well, in the beginning, it was because I’ve been traveling a lot, right? So in the beginning, I was quite happy because I always I’ve always done kind of the hybrid model, you know, do a couple of days on site, and then go home and work through what you’ve learned and prepare presentations and papers and stuff. Since the beginning of awesome, you know, I don’t have to iron my shirts, I could just put on by, you know, by my joggers, nobody will know, you know, I just have to look presentable. Awesome. And then after was like, Okay, I wasn’t even putting on my makeup anymore. And it started to really be like, you know, no. So and then I started, I started to feel like people would slip away from you know, I wouldn’t really know what’s going on with them anymore. So what we did is, we did like online activities, so and what sells really weird but you know, you can do wine tastings online, meet as a group you have, I don’t know, we did an escape room game, which was amazing. You know, with everybody in the Zoom Room. It’s weird, but you know, it gives you time to talk outside of work and solve a problem together and bond. But, you know, I just realized last week that some of the people I’ve worked with in the last couple of months, I could walk by in the street and I wouldn’t know if it was them. I don’t know how tall they are. I’ve never met them in person. I don’t know, you know, the way they move. I’ve never met them in person. I just know their face. two dimensional, you know, from a screen. So weird. Really weird.
Pei Mun Lim
Okay,
Pei Mun Lim
so we’ve been talking about projects in I think, I know nailed to this. But what I wanted to get to was knowing consulting, we do lots and lots of projects of different types of different people, different clients. What are some of your more enjoyable ones? Can you draw some themes for me? I know already, we talked about teamwork. But is there anything else that that you think oh, I would love to get my teeth into that project that I’m hearing about?
Carol
Yeah, clients who are very open to new things. Like you know, I mean, I remember during first customer 360 came out and I was hooked, you know, marketing message worked. Me 100% I was sitting in that audience with I was like, Oh my god, this is so awesome. I want this you know, so fast. couple of months I kept bugging the account execs like is a ga is a ga I just like yeah, take it. It’ll be there. It’ll be there. But then, you know, convincing customers to go that extra mile because, interestingly enough, most people are okay to go the normative way. If If you can explain to them what the benefits are, there’s always some downsides. But people will accept growing pains. And I love these projects the most. So when people say, Okay, I see the bigger picture, I know where we want to be, and you know, it’s going to be hard. And we kind of like pioneering this. So I know it’s going to be downsides. My most favorite projects, because you will learn so much. And yeah, you make a lot of mistakes. And I don’t mind mistakes, because you learn from them. It’s a matter of how you handle them. And whether or not there’s a culture that allows for mistakes. So innovative and culture for learning from mistakes. I mean,
Pei Mun Lim
in customers who are excited, I think, is such a, it makes such a big difference. Yeah.
Carol
But you know what, that also something, if you work with me, you will hardly get around, because I can get us excited, like a little kid at Christmas. And you will have you either totally annoyed by that, or you will totally jump in. Because you can be giddy at everything. I can be guilty about these things. And you know, you have to because I mean, I’ve been doing this for a long time now. And I think the day I don’t get up in the morning, and I’m excited about this anymore, I will quit. But I totally am excited about this. Because you get to work with it. You know what the waiting is you work with people who do very regulated things every day. But you get them to be creative and excited about this. It’s my it’s my that I live for that, you know?
Pei Mun Lim
Fantastic. I think sometimes when I’m talking to you, I feel like I’m talking to myself, because that’s kind of how I feel. The only difference is that I’ve moved away from product slightly. And my focus has been more around the getting the team to work together well. But I totally at one point, I think I was looking do I do I specialize into becoming a business solution architect, or do I generalize into project management? And for some reason, I think I was better at that. And I felt that there were clever people who could do the business solutioning. And that’s the path that I took. But I totally get your excitement, because I can I can totally, totally be like that, too.
Carol
Yeah, and you said something important as well, right? You know, you’ve made a decision for one or the other field. And on our previous talk, we spoke about this a little bit, you know, that coveted holy grail of technical architect in the Salesforce world? That’s something I kind of disagree on in a way, you know, because like you said, find your area of interest and make that your expertise. And I do not like how we stack certain. How do you say names or descriptions for certain positions, and then make it seem like one is above the other? It does not work that way. If we want to talk like that’s what I would say we I detest the pyramid, I hate it. It’s not a pyramid. It’s a circle. Because if you miss the business analysis, you can have the best technical architect in the world, your solution is going to be shipped. I’m sorry, be disciplined. But and that’s what I always say to people as well. You’re not just an admin, you’re not just a business analyst or a project manager, you are that person, be proud, be a specialist in this field. And yes, we do need technical architects, but please dial down the hype. It’s not all about that. Like we need people to deliver our sound business analysis, sound process design, excellent project management, if we do not have these people, the whole project is going to fail. So that’s just one thing. It’s very close to my heart, and I’m a business analyst at heart. I love that so important, because that’s how you get to ask all the questions. Without any shame. You could ask any questions? It’s my nature.
Pei Mun Lim
No, me too. Me too. I love this unless and also maybe I played the I played the foreigner card quite a lot. I’m not embarrassed to admit it. But I’ll say you know what, I’m not English. Can you just explain it into a more simple terms for me? And I think I’m charming enough that I can get away with a lot of those questions. What you said was really interesting, because it I think it’s I think you and I are in that place in our lives where we kind of know ourselves a lot. And I believe for a lot of people. It Trying to figure out the right role for them to be comfortably. And I was just talking to one of the connections I’m now on LinkedIn has become quite good friend. It’s marrying of passion principles and purpose. In sometimes I look back, and I think I would love to be like, you still really stuck in the guts of the project and trying to get stuff out. Because that also excites me. That’s why I bought the solution architect book, because I still love it. But it’s understanding what the purpose is. So the other thing also is that for me, personally, I don’t see so many great product managers in I look around, and I see that project to be done a lot better. And that’s why I’ve moved into this area, because I think there’s a lot more to be gained. from getting people to come together and being larger than the sum of the parts in that’s, I think, where my purpose is. So for you to be very comfortable, where you’re at, in saying no to the pyramid and saying, you can be great at what you do where you are, if you know, and I think that’s key thing, if you know, who you are, what your passion, what your purpose, what your principles are, and stick with it, rather than letting someone dictate to you that you have not not passing something that makes you less than who you are
Carol
Yep. Totally
Pei Mun Lim
Must.. just by thinking it requires a level of maturity and self awareness. And that’s why it’s great that you’ve got your mentoring program, because you’re helping others who are coming up the cool.
Carol
Yeah, and I mean, also, there’s no shame in changing your your path, like, you know, or turning around in the middle of it and working backwards. I don’t think there’s any shame in it. And I think, as long as what you said, like, as long as there’s a purpose to it, and you have a passion about it, like you can make a you can become successful in any part of the ecosystem. And you’re totally right. We need brilliant project managers, we need a lot of them, there isn’t so many good ones out there. I’m afraid, you know, not everybody can be a project manager. And that’s also something people always forget. It’s like, yeah, of course, I can write, you know, some or I can draw up some PowerPoint slides. And I can draw a timeline. But that’s not every. So people forget. So yeah, we can stress it a lot more. Not everybody is cut out to be a project manager. So
Pei Mun Lim
I would say there was someone who was talking about it about project management. And they also felt the same thing, no drawing up Gantt charts, following up on activities, but they’re the other sides of it, which is around handling the politics. I know, that’s something that’s not your bank. And, and, for me, I see project management as something where I’m removing the obstacles for my team. And that may include shouldering some of the politics and some of the noise so that it doesn’t drop down. And I guess maybe I, maybe it’s just me, but I think a lot of the times I can handle that, in a way, because also the other thing that I feel people like yourself in my team, who are much better at what the product does, what the platform does, then than me. And I think that if I can help you do your job better, then that makes the project as a whole better. Yeah. And that’s, that’s part of being project managers, just dealing with noise to put in very gently. And talk to me about some of the projects that hasn’t gone. Well. And what are the things that come from that?
Carol
Well, you know, projects that haven’t gone well, usually for me tend to be around people, you know, and what has come around that really is it can have a lingering effect, you know, so if there’s people in there who I call them toxic in a way that they don’t know how to behave around other people or they behavior on other people’s house bad, right sounds like they don’t have table manners, but you know, it can be discretion that you know, where they become loud or aggressive, obnoxious. It’s, you know, screaming has never solved anything. Because if there’s a problem here, we will fix it. But it doesn’t help that you’re shouting or throwing things or throwing a temper tantrum like a three year old who hasn’t gotten the lollipop in the shop, it’s not working. And also, it doesn’t only made me disrespect to you, it makes me feel. Or it can trigger people, you know. So for me, it’s like, in my past, there have been people who haven’t really always played nicely. And these kinds of things, they trigger me. So I will remove myself from that situation. And that might even go as far as me leaving the project. And it has taped, but it has taken a while until I could also be confident enough in myself to just get up and walk away. And I realized that there is people out there, especially people who come to the ecosystem, from university or from other walks of life, whatever, or younger people who aren’t that safe and happy with and in themselves that it might be very intimidating. And people think that they will have to endure this because it’s just part of the culture or the way we do projects. And I hate that. So that is something and that are projects that stay with me for a while because they need to, I’m trying to process really what makes people tick in that way, I do not understand why you would shout or scream or be aggressive or bullying or whatever. I don’t get that that’s hard for me to grasp. So yeah, those kinds of projects, they’ve stuck with me. And it’s always a little bit. starting new projects. I’m always a little bit apprehensive in the beginning, but I am a very good judge of character, I think so it has gotten easier over the years to weed out those bad apples.
Pei Mun Lim
Sounds like you what makes or break the project, or the people, isn’t it? That’s the summary. And I think I would agree. So on different different angles. One is the team that you’re in, makes a massive difference. Because like you say, it’s a family for the duration of the project you go to be, you know, eyeballs deep in just project work. So it is key that there are people that you can trust, who can communicate, that you can lean on. On your side, we’ve got the clients, when the clients are excited about change, that makes a huge difference. And something else that you alluded to, but not quite his, I think is the company that you work for, and the backing that they provide for you, which is over and above just project work. And if they can give you support when things are going a bit crazy. That just makes a huge difference. So it is for you. And for me, people all the way what makes or breaks a project, thank you for that. I have really really enjoyed the the content of the topics that we’ve been talking about. like to just move to a slightly lighter note and talk about you, for example, because I we got to know each other on LinkedIn, a little bit. And then we have that one conversation that had technical issues. And I find myself liking you very, very much you mirror a lot of things that that are my values. But let’s, let’s talk about what you hold the most there in your heart in terms of the values
Carol
or this a couple. Um, first and foremost, I think the most important value that I have is honesty. Like being honest, not only with others, but with yourself is very important. Because Yeah, if you’re not honest with others, the relationship loses trust, right. And if you’re not honest with yourself, you might overestimate what you’re capable of doing. So that’s one thing. Also, I first said loyalty and we’ve elaborated a little bit on that. And loyalty is also something that’s very important to me because it means that you have my back no matter what, that’s very important. And I’m the same. So I do support people and I have their backs and I will literally get up at three in the morning and pick you up somewhere from the airport if you’re stuck. That’s kind of what loyalty is to me as well. So these are the two most important values that I hold very dear to my heart. And when you get to know me, you will find that everybody has 100 Trust points upfront. And it gets a little on, it’s a little hard to lose them. But if you have, then, yeah, you are very deep in it.
Pei Mun Lim
Can I just share something with you? So I chatted to Eva, your friend. And somebody also who I have interviewed with podcast and she shared that when she started her first. meetup, you actually flew over to support her in she was so so deeply grateful and move that she shared that with me. And I think that shows anyone really the kind of values that you hold on you live it, we just got just talking about you a bit. So I’m so glad to have known you. For, you know, for this for this, even though even though we just met on LinkedIn, I’m very grateful that I have you as a connection. Because Yeah,
Carol
me too. Like I really enjoyed our talks very much. Yeah. And Eva, very, very close to my heart. So that that was awesome as well, because we met by chance at a conference, you know, and I cannot wait for those to happen. And yeah, but you know, I believe it’s so important to support each other. And I do like to support others, because I have received so much support in my career. And giving back is very important to me. Okay,
Pei Mun Lim
it shows in readers show. Okay, one final question. Before we wrap up. It’s been super interesting. But what are some of your quirks? I only know you from the two dimensional picture. But yeah, just wondering if you can
Carol
you have to give me a hint on quirks again, because I usually say very normal thing. So now we have to come up with
Pei Mun Lim
looks like just minute. is. Is my video actually moving or not moving? No. Not moving. Hold on. She’s very annoying. One sec. Okay, you are in better. Okay. What happened? No, because I’m trying to learn how to use the webcam from my phone, which is better than so if I just show you this. Today, this is my laptop, which is not great.
Carol
Okay.
Pei Mun Lim
So I changed to my phone, which is better. So I’m looking at it. Yes. But someone rang me and I think that just kicked out the connection.
Carol
Oh. So but if I did, it didn’t look with it. It’s fine.
Pei Mun Lim
I know. It’s talking. My face was on moving. back. Okay. Tell me Yes. quirks is things like that you do that other people don’t do I know what it is already? Because we had the interview today. And I’ll tell you what it is. And you say you’re a hugger?
Carol
Yes. Yeah, I hug everybody. It’s horrible. And you know what, that’s maybe the thing I missed the most, you know, this pandemic that I cannot hug people make you my customer. If we know each other well enough, you’ll get a hug. I mean, I will always ask and before so don’t worry on board, just jump people in hope we
Pei Mun Lim
also do other things for you. If you hadn’t mentioned your height, I wouldn’t have known it but to have someone it helped me who is much, much taller than me is something that I look forward to when I meet you next.
Carol
Yeah, I cannot wait.
Pei Mun Lim
One final question I’m going to slip in, which is what is your guilty pleasure?
Carol
Oh my god. Yeah. We had a question before. Guilty pleasure. What what’s yours
Pei Mun Lim
Reading tabloids sometimes?
Carol
Oh my god. Yeah, I know everything about those.
Carol
I always say I don’t, but I do know. But also like I’m a nearly 40 year old anime watching woman so I can bet on my 12 year old nephew would I know everything about
Pei Mun Lim
like Dragonball Z and
Carol
I am like knee deep in the Naruto series right now. I love it. And I will keep watching that until the day I die. I don’t care. People may laugh about this, but I love it.
Pei Mun Lim
No, my husband is into it. I think if we ever meet you and him we’ll just carry on talking just ignore me.
Carol
No, he won’t ignore you. But you can jump in anytime with your knowledge of anime.
Pei Mun Lim
Very, very limited. The only anime I know is when my daughter does a drawing. I don’t know if you can see now you go.
Carol
Oh, that’s gorgeous. Like she’s very talented.
Pei Mun Lim
And she’ll do the really big ice sparkly thing. Like the manga. thing. But yeah, that’s as close as I get just my husband and my daughter just
Carol
have to suffer through it like no, I literally wrote my 10 year old nephew yesterday. I was like, Listen, do you have like any suggestions of anatomy I can watch? And he said to me this long list and I’m like seeing the scene, this scene? Are you seeing this? And he’s like, what you watch this? Again? Sounds like I have too much time. But I’ve literally seen them all. And you know, it’s my piece of being a small kid that I will cherish and keep.
Pei Mun Lim
Yeah. You know, thank you so much, Carol, I really, really enjoyed my second time around talking to you. And, you know, let’s have another section next time where we can talk a little bit more deeper. Some of the things that we didn’t cover today, and maybe it’d be interesting to cover might be around. What are the key success factors when looking at projects? What do you wish that more customers would do to ensure success? That’s all thing go a little bit deeper into project delivery. But this has been super, super fun. And I’m really glad I got to do it again with you. Thank you so much.
Carol
Thank you very much.
Pei Mun Lim
Thank you